Discussion:
EMU-vm follow-up
(too old to reply)
brad
2012-06-09 00:36:36 UTC
Permalink
Sorry, that's pp. 18-20 in the User Manual. Friday night, and I'm tired...
Paul Sture
2012-06-15 08:49:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by brad
Sorry, that's pp. 18-20 in the User Manual. Friday night, and I'm tired...
And those are the last three pages in the manual. Simply go straight to
the end.

And because the PDF didn't copy and paste very well into a text file, I
have put up a copy here:

<http://www.sture.ch/vms/alphafreevm-sample-config.txt>
Artem
2012-06-18 17:45:48 UTC
Permalink
A new version for Linux x64 - AlphaVM-free 1.1.3 is avalailable for download at http://emuvm.com.

It has a number of additions and but fixes.

It is now distributed as a compressed directory, rather than just an executable. The directory contains the executable, a disk creation tool, an example configuration etc.
Single Stage to Orbit
2012-06-18 20:04:48 UTC
Permalink
A new version for Linux x64 - AlphaVM-free 1.1.3 is available for
download at http://emuvm.com.
It has a number of additions and but fixes.
It is now distributed as a compressed directory, rather than just an
executable. The directory contains the executable, a disk creation tool,
an example configuration etc.

Your mkdisk bash script is broken. Here's a fixed version that _will_
work with bash 4.x.

#!/bin/sh

print_help()
{
echo "Create empty disk image"
echo "USAGE: $0 <type> <file>"
echo "<type> is the disk type"
echo "rz26 - DEC RZ26, 1Gb"
echo "rz28d - DEC RZ28D, 2Gb"
echo "rz29b - DEC RZ29B, 4Gb"
echo "rz59 - DEC RZ59, 8.5Gb"
echo "hdd10gb, hdd20gb, ... hdd50gb - EmuVM image of a specific
size"
exit 1
}

type=$1
file=$2

if [ "$type" = "" ]; then
print_help
fi

if [ "$file" = "" ]; then
print_help
exit 1
fi

if [ -f "$file" ]; then
echo "The disk image already exists."
echo "Do you wish to continue and overwrite the file[y/n]?"
while [ 0 ]
do
read answer
case $answer in
y)
break
;;
n)
exit 2;
;;
*)
echo "Please answer y or n!"
;;
esac
done
fi

case $type in
rz26)
count=2050860
bs=512
;;
rz28d)
count=4110480
bs=512
;;
rz29b)
count=8380080
bs=512
;;
rz59)
count=17755614
bs=512
;;
hdd10gb)
count=`expr 1024 * 10`
bs=1M
;;

hdd20gb)
count=`expr 1024 * 20`
bs=1M
;;

hdd30gb)
count=`expr 1024 * 30`
bs=1M
;;

hdd40gb)
count=`expr 1024 * 40`
bs=1M
;;

hdd50gb)
count=`expr 1024 * 50`
bs=1M
;;

*)
echo "Unknown disk type $type"
print_help()
exit 3
esac

echo "Writing the file ..."
dd if=/dev/zero of=$file bs=$bs count=$count
if [ $? = 0 ]; then
echo "Successfully created the disk image"
else
echo "Failed to create the disk image"
fi
--
Tactical Nuclear Kittens
Artem Alimarin
2012-06-18 20:53:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Single Stage to Orbit
Your mkdisk bash script is broken. Here's a fixed version that _will_
work with bash 4.x.
Oh, thank you. My shell scripting skills are rusty. I will include your
version in the new distribution.
Single Stage to Orbit
2012-06-18 20:15:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Artem
It is now distributed as a compressed directory, rather than just an
executable. The directory contains the executable, a disk creation
tool, an example configuration etc.
Your terminal emulation in the emulator is utterly, utterly, utterly
broken. To my surprise when I tried to set up the SYSTEM password, it
was passed in the clear instead of having noecho switched on in the
terminal, resulting in VMS 8.3 rejecting any passwords I cared to set.

Have you tested it with different Linux systems i.e Gentoo on Gnome?
--
Tactical Nuclear Kittens
Artem Alimarin
2012-06-18 20:49:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Single Stage to Orbit
To my surprise when I tried to set up the SYSTEM password, it
was passed in the clear instead of having noecho switched on in the
terminal, resulting in VMS 8.3 rejecting any passwords I cared to set
First of all thatk you for your interest in the product.

I tested it with putty terminal emulator. It is essential that putty is
configured to RAW mode with LOCAL ECHO and LOCAL LINE EDITING to FORCED
OFF. This is stated in the comment in the example configuration file.
Dale Dellutri
2012-06-18 20:53:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Single Stage to Orbit
Post by Artem
It is now distributed as a compressed directory, rather than just an
executable. The directory contains the executable, a disk creation
tool, an example configuration etc.
Your terminal emulation in the emulator is utterly, utterly, utterly
broken. To my surprise when I tried to set up the SYSTEM password, it
was passed in the clear instead of having noecho switched on in the
terminal, resulting in VMS 8.3 rejecting any passwords I cared to set.
I had the same problem, then I read the comments in the example.emu
file:

# Serial console.
# Connect Putty in RAW mode to localhost:20000.
# Set putty options LOCAL ECHO and LOCAL LINE EDITING to FORCED OFF

I couldn't get telnet to work, so I installed putty on my Fedora 14
desktop, connected as shown in the comments, and it all worked.
Post by Single Stage to Orbit
Have you tested it with different Linux systems i.e Gentoo on Gnome?
I've only done very minor testing on my Fedora 14 system, but I
was able to successfully install VMS 8.4 on an emulated 20GB disk.
--
Dale Dellutri <***@panQQQix.com> (lose the Q's)
Artem Alimarin
2012-06-18 20:58:38 UTC
Permalink
It must RAW mode, because the console does not speak TELNET but rather
just sends characters to the VT100 or whatever is connected.
Single Stage to Orbit
2012-06-18 21:53:52 UTC
Permalink
It be must RAW mode, because the console does not speak TELNET but
rather just sends characters to the VT100 or whatever is connected.
It is. telnet passes the stream of bytes to the underlying terminal,
which happens to be gnome-terminal on my Gentoo installation which
probably doesn't know to force NOECHO/NOLN on.

I have another script which perfectly emulates a VT100 terminal which I
will try out. If it works, I'll post the script here.
--
Tactical Nuclear Kittens
Vertis Sidus
2012-08-04 01:51:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Single Stage to Orbit
It be must RAW mode, because the console does not speak TELNET but
rather just sends characters to the VT100 or whatever is connected.
It is. telnet passes the stream of bytes to the underlying terminal,
which happens to be gnome-terminal on my Gentoo installation which
probably doesn't know to force NOECHO/NOLN on.
I have another script which perfectly emulates a VT100 terminal which I
will try out. If it works, I'll post the script here.
I know I'm a bit late to this, but I'm using gnome-terminal as well, and
I'm certain the echo comes from the telnet client, not the terminal. The
solution I found was to install socat and use this command to connect:

socat -,raw,echo=0 tcp:127.0.0.1:20000

I think netcat will probably work for this too, but I couldn't figure out
how to make that happen.
--
***@sdf.org
SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.org
Paul Sture
2012-08-04 16:28:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vertis Sidus
Post by Single Stage to Orbit
It be must RAW mode, because the console does not speak TELNET but
rather just sends characters to the VT100 or whatever is connected.
It is. telnet passes the stream of bytes to the underlying terminal,
which happens to be gnome-terminal on my Gentoo installation which
probably doesn't know to force NOECHO/NOLN on.
I have another script which perfectly emulates a VT100 terminal which I
will try out. If it works, I'll post the script here.
I know I'm a bit late to this, but I'm using gnome-terminal as well, and
I'm certain the echo comes from the telnet client, not the terminal. The
socat -,raw,echo=0 tcp:127.0.0.1:20000
I think netcat will probably work for this too, but I couldn't figure
out how to make that happen.
Thanks very much. That incantation of socat works fine here.

My mix is Xfce and Fedora 17 (64 bit).

A SET TERM/INQUIRE gives me VT200 here, but it isn't (EDIT/TPU outputs
"garbage"). SET TERM/VT100 gets me started, though the numeric keypad in
TPU is way off and doesn't appear to work at all in EDT. Things like
MONITOR MODE and MONITOR SYSTEM display correctly.

VIM or line mode EDT to the rescue :-)

socat also works during a conversational boot. Using the raw option of
PuTTY I was getting dropped characters at the SYSBOOT prompt, to the
extent where I couldn't even enter SET STARTUP_P1 "MIN".
--
Paul Sture
Vertis Sidus
2012-08-04 21:51:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Sture
A SET TERM/INQUIRE gives me VT200 here, but it isn't (EDIT/TPU outputs
"garbage"). SET TERM/VT100 gets me started, though the numeric keypad in
TPU is way off and doesn't appear to work at all in EDT. Things like
MONITOR MODE and MONITOR SYSTEM display correctly.
That's about what I've experienced - Output works about as well as I can
expect it to, input is basically awful. The first thing I type in any
session is SET TERM/VT100/WIDTH=80/INSERT (I haven't set up a LOGIN.COM
yet because I haven't got a text editor figured out; obviously I'm at a
very early stage).

I've all but given up on finding a remotely accurate VT100 emulator. At
this point I'm just waiting for the MESS team to get theirs working.

I may just buy a VT. I know a place that sometimes has them for not much
money. The main thing that's been holding me back is desk space.
--
***@sdf.org
SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.org
Jan-Erik Soderholm
2012-08-04 22:21:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vertis Sidus
Post by Paul Sture
A SET TERM/INQUIRE gives me VT200 here, but it isn't (EDIT/TPU outputs
"garbage"). SET TERM/VT100 gets me started, though the numeric keypad in
TPU is way off and doesn't appear to work at all in EDT. Things like
MONITOR MODE and MONITOR SYSTEM display correctly.
That's about what I've experienced - Output works about as well as I can
expect it to, input is basically awful. The first thing I type in any
session is SET TERM/VT100/WIDTH=80/INSERT (I haven't set up a LOGIN.COM
yet because I haven't got a text editor figured out; obviously I'm at a
very early stage).
You can create a one-line LOGIN.COM with :

$ create login.com
$ SET TERM/VT100/WIDTH=80/INSERT
<ctrl-Z>
$

The "$" on the second line (with the SET TERM command) is entered
by you, the line is empty and CREATE is waiting for input.
ctrl-Z exits CREATE and closes the LOGIN.COM file.
Post by Vertis Sidus
I've all but given up on finding a remotely accurate VT100 emulator. At
this point I'm just waiting for the MESS team to get theirs working.
I may just buy a VT. I know a place that sometimes has them for not much
money. The main thing that's been holding me back is desk space.
Vertis Sidus
2012-08-05 00:35:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
$ create login.com
$ SET TERM/VT100/WIDTH=80/INSERT
<ctrl-Z>
$
Oh! Okay. I already knew about some of that, but I was using COPY
SYS$INPUT (a result of vague childhood memories of VMS followed by a
decade and a half of using Linux). Now that I know there's a specific
command for the job, I'll be using that from now on. Thank you!

Somehow, while I was writing my last post, I managed to forget that the
main reason I don't have a LOGIN.COM yet is that I'm trying to learn how
to set up a cluster; I haven't made a user account for myself yet in any
of the VMS VMs I have right now, and I'm wary of adding something like
that to the SYSTEM account.

And, I mean, really, I've got arrow keys and ctrl-Z working, which isn't
enough to really _use_ (Eve? TPU? Whatever the default editor is), but
it's enough to fake it. Mainly I've just been afflicted by the strange
sort of laziness where I'd rather type the SET TERM thing on every login
than type maybe twice as much, once, and not have to deal with it anymore.

Actually, though, I have to say I'm curious why it switches to 132 column
mode when I log in. Is there any way to stop it doing that?
--
***@sdf.org
SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.org
Paul Sture
2012-08-05 16:17:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vertis Sidus
Somehow, while I was writing my last post, I managed to forget that the
main reason I don't have a LOGIN.COM yet is that I'm trying to learn how
to set up a cluster; I haven't made a user account for myself yet in any
of the VMS VMs I have right now, and I'm wary of adding something like
that to the SYSTEM account.
Are you sure there isn't a LOGIN.COM already in SYS$MANAGER ?

Here's what I have on my system (initially installed with V7.n, later
upgraded to V8.3):

$ dir /size=all /date login

Directory SYS$COMMON:[SYSMGR]

LOGIN.COM;1 2/18 18-NOV-1991 14:55:29.96
LOGIN.TEMPLATE;1 4/18 11-APR-2003 18:46:30.52
Post by Vertis Sidus
And, I mean, really, I've got arrow keys and ctrl-Z working, which isn't
enough to really _use_ (Eve? TPU? Whatever the default editor is), but
it's enough to fake it. Mainly I've just been afflicted by the strange
sort of laziness where I'd rather type the SET TERM thing on every login
than type maybe twice as much, once, and not have to deal with it anymore.
This is where VIM comes in handy. You don't need any function keys to
run it. And yes, for a while I suffered from that same strange laziness,
but now I have this in my LOGIN.COM:

$ set term/vt100
Post by Vertis Sidus
Actually, though, I have to say I'm curious why it switches to 132
column mode when I log in. Is there any way to stop it doing that?
There is also SYS$MANAGER:SYLOGIN.COM. My system started out life on a
real Alpha PWS 600au so I was using the CDE interface rather than the
console. I was surprised that at the first console login it cleared the
screen. This line is the culprit:

$ SET TERMINAL/INQUIRE /PAGE='tt_page'/WIDTH='devbufsiz'

Setting the width has the side effect of clearing the screen. I changed
the line to:

$ SET TERMINAL/INQUIRE !/PAGE='tt_page'/WIDTH='devbufsiz'

I might just comment the whole line out for current purposes.

One the editor front, EDIT/EDT in command line mode might be an old
fashioned method, but it works. I'll dig out the initialisation file I
have for EDIT/TPU later (food is calling).
--
Paul Sture
Paul Sture
2012-08-09 14:41:01 UTC
Permalink
I'll dig out the initialisation file Ihave for EDIT/TPU later
In my LOGIN.COM

$ define eve$init sys$login:eveini.eve

The relevant lines of eveini.eve

DEFINE KEY=CONTROL-D DO
DEFINE KEY=CONTROL-F FIND

With this you can issue TPU commands (CTRL-D) and search (CTRL-F, double
CTRL-F to find again), without needing any function keys.
--
Paul Sture
Vertis Sidus
2012-08-11 23:36:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Sture
I'll dig out the initialisation file Ihave for EDIT/TPU later
In my LOGIN.COM
$ define eve$init sys$login:eveini.eve
The relevant lines of eveini.eve
DEFINE KEY=CONTROL-D DO
DEFINE KEY=CONTROL-F FIND
With this you can issue TPU commands (CTRL-D) and search (CTRL-F, double
CTRL-F to find again), without needing any function keys.
This looks like it's exactly what I need. Unfortunately, the host I use for
VAX and Alpha emulation died this week, so I'm not sure when I'll be able to
test it.
--
***@sdf.org
SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.org
Paul Sture
2012-08-12 11:55:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vertis Sidus
Post by Paul Sture
I'll dig out the initialisation file Ihave for EDIT/TPU later
In my LOGIN.COM
$ define eve$init sys$login:eveini.eve
The relevant lines of eveini.eve
DEFINE KEY=CONTROL-D DO DEFINE KEY=CONTROL-F FIND
With this you can issue TPU commands (CTRL-D) and search (CTRL-F,
double CTRL-F to find again), without needing any function keys.
This looks like it's exactly what I need. Unfortunately, the host I use
for VAX and Alpha emulation died this week, so I'm not sure when I'll be
able to test it.
That Murphy character is about. I am familiar with Windows installations
stomping on boot blocks and menus, but it appears that certain Linux
distros exhibit the same behaviour :-(

Yes we have copious backups but the current challenge is to see if I can
do a repair without restoring the lot :-)
--
Paul Sture
Dirk Munk
2012-08-06 07:06:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vertis Sidus
Post by Paul Sture
A SET TERM/INQUIRE gives me VT200 here, but it isn't (EDIT/TPU outputs
"garbage"). SET TERM/VT100 gets me started, though the numeric keypad in
TPU is way off and doesn't appear to work at all in EDT. Things like
MONITOR MODE and MONITOR SYSTEM display correctly.
That's about what I've experienced - Output works about as well as I can
expect it to, input is basically awful. The first thing I type in any
session is SET TERM/VT100/WIDTH=80/INSERT (I haven't set up a LOGIN.COM
yet because I haven't got a text editor figured out; obviously I'm at a
very early stage).
I've all but given up on finding a remotely accurate VT100 emulator. At
this point I'm just waiting for the MESS team to get theirs working.
I may just buy a VT. I know a place that sometimes has them for not much
money. The main thing that's been holding me back is desk space.
When DEC was still selling Pathworks with special PC keyboards etc., the
terminal emulator they used was made by Ericom. It was a very good
emulator, and now you can get it for Linux as well:

http://www.ericom.com/pti4linux.asp
Paul Sture
2012-08-09 14:22:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dirk Munk
When DEC was still selling Pathworks with special PC keyboards etc., the
terminal emulator they used was made by Ericom. It was a very good
http://www.ericom.com/pti4linux.asp
Thanks Dirk. Any idea how much it costs? The web site has a "Get a
Price Quote" option. I'd rather have a ball park figure first than
attract attention from a sales person.
--
Paul Sture
Stephen Hoffman
2012-08-09 14:55:43 UTC
Permalink
...Any idea how much it costs? The web site has a "Get a
Price Quote" option. I'd rather have a ball park figure first than
attract attention from a sales person.
<http://www.burnerapp.com> :-)
--
Pure Personal Opinion | HoffmanLabs LLC
Paul Sture
2012-08-09 15:34:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Hoffman
...Any idea how much it costs? The web site has a "Get a Price Quote"
option. I'd rather have a ball park figure first than attract
attention from a sales person.
<http://www.burnerapp.com> :-)
Not quite what I expected :-) , but a nice find. Thanks.
--
Paul Sture
Dirk Munk
2012-08-09 15:13:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Sture
Post by Dirk Munk
When DEC was still selling Pathworks with special PC keyboards etc., the
terminal emulator they used was made by Ericom. It was a very good
http://www.ericom.com/pti4linux.asp
Thanks Dirk. Any idea how much it costs? The web site has a "Get a
Price Quote" option. I'd rather have a ball park figure first than
attract attention from a sales person.
No, I wish I did. I asked reseller not to far from here what one license
would cost, he would call me back but I haven't heard from him yet.

I've also sent an email to Ericom in Israel to ask them if we could get
free or reduced price licenses for the hobbyist program. No reaction so far.
Paul Sture
2012-08-04 17:00:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vertis Sidus
I know I'm a bit late to this, but I'm using gnome-terminal as well, and
I'm certain the echo comes from the telnet client, not the terminal. The
socat -,raw,echo=0 tcp:127.0.0.1:20000
socat -,raw,echo=0,escape=0x1c tcp:127.0.0.1:20000

gets you CTRL-\ as the escape character.
--
Paul Sture
Stephen Hoffman
2012-06-18 22:29:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Artem Alimarin
It must RAW mode, because the console does not speak TELNET but rather
just sends characters to the VT100 or whatever is connected.
Barring a case where local-echo is enabled, echo-processing is not a
function of the terminal, whether the current terminal is connected by
telnet, serial, LAT, CTERM, or whatever...

When a terminal controller (whether emulated or real) has the echo
mechanism disabled, there are no characters sent from the terminal
controller back to the terminal in response to characters set from the
terminal to the host controller.

Put another way, when there is no echo, there is no echo.

If there are characters being echoed back to the terminal in response
to terminal input (when the host operating system has requested there
be no echo), then the terminal controller has not correctly responded
to the request from the host to disable echo.

In this case, it would appear that the device driver set a bit, and the
terminal controller didn't process it correctly.

Raw mode or whatever doesn't matter here, as there should be no
characters sent to the terminal. There would appear to be something
else going on here; possibly a missed setting or misbehavior in the
terminal controller emulation, or possibly a local-echo setting that's
established somewhere in the particular configuration.
Artem Alimarin
2012-06-18 22:53:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Post by Artem Alimarin
It must RAW mode, because the console does not speak TELNET but rather
just sends characters to the VT100 or whatever is connected.
Barring a case where local-echo is enabled, echo-processing is not a
function of the terminal, whether the current terminal is connected by
telnet, serial, LAT, CTERM, or whatever...
When a terminal controller (whether emulated or real) has the echo
mechanism disabled, there are no characters sent from the terminal
controller back to the terminal in response to characters set from the
terminal to the host controller.
Put another way, when there is no echo, there is no echo.
If there are characters being echoed back to the terminal in response to
terminal input (when the host operating system has requested there be no
echo), then the terminal controller has not correctly responded to the
request from the host to disable echo.
In this case, it would appear that the device driver set a bit, and the
terminal controller didn't process it correctly.
Raw mode or whatever doesn't matter here, as there should be no
characters sent to the terminal. There would appear to be something
else going on here; possibly a missed setting or misbehavior in the
terminal controller emulation, or possibly a local-echo setting that's
established somewhere in the particular configuration.
Basically the echo setting on both sides of the connection should
correspond to each other. In my case OpenVMS does echo to the console,
so local echo is disabled in putty (and it works).

I emulate UART. Echo is done by the OpenVMS driver, not by UART, as far
as I remember. Am I missing something here?

If I understand correctly, the problem is that some terminal emulators
cannot disable local echo. How would OpenVMS know about it? What would
you do? Change terminal setting in OpenVMS? What does my UART emulation
have to do with it?
Jan-Erik Soderholm
2012-06-18 23:10:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Artem Alimarin
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Post by Artem Alimarin
It must RAW mode, because the console does not speak TELNET but rather
just sends characters to the VT100 or whatever is connected.
Barring a case where local-echo is enabled, echo-processing is not a
function of the terminal, whether the current terminal is connected by
telnet, serial, LAT, CTERM, or whatever...
When a terminal controller (whether emulated or real) has the echo
mechanism disabled, there are no characters sent from the terminal
controller back to the terminal in response to characters set from the
terminal to the host controller.
Put another way, when there is no echo, there is no echo.
If there are characters being echoed back to the terminal in response to
terminal input (when the host operating system has requested there be no
echo), then the terminal controller has not correctly responded to the
request from the host to disable echo.
In this case, it would appear that the device driver set a bit, and the
terminal controller didn't process it correctly.
Raw mode or whatever doesn't matter here, as there should be no
characters sent to the terminal. There would appear to be something
else going on here; possibly a missed setting or misbehavior in the
terminal controller emulation, or possibly a local-echo setting that's
established somewhere in the particular configuration.
Basically the echo setting on both sides of the connection should
correspond to each other. In my case OpenVMS does echo to the console, so
local echo is disabled in putty (and it works).
I emulate UART. Echo is done by the OpenVMS driver, not by UART, as far as
I remember. Am I missing something here?
If I understand correctly, the problem is that some terminal emulators
cannot disable local echo. How would OpenVMS know about it? What would you
do? Change terminal setting in OpenVMS? What does my UART emulation have to
do with it?
The problem is that PuTTY, in non-raw mode, uses the standard telnet
negotiation to setup the "local echo" and other settings. When talking
to something that does not answer properly to these initialization,
things might end up wrong. That is why one in some cases have to set
some settings the hard way in the PuTTY configuration.

I know this from configuring PuTTY to correctly work against the serial
console port of AlphaServer DS20's connected to terminal servers. The
COM port IP-ports (10001 on these Lantronix devices) are raw by themself
and does not reply properly to PuTTY trying to set itself up. So, not
knowing better, PuTTY decides that it better set "local echo" on with
the effect that everything written to the VMS console ends up doubled
on screen. You can still work (since VMS knows nothing about this)
but it looks like :

$ SSHH TTIIMMEE
12:34

By specificaly telling PuTTY to disable local echo things runs
just well. There is also another checkbox right besides local
echo that I set hard to "disable".

I would think this to be the case against anything that does not
respond properly to the telnet init commands. This can easily be
verified by switching debug logging on in PuTTY, there is a
checkbox somewhere in there. Run it against a real telnet host
and watch the telnet question/reply seqences passing by. Then
run it against something that is not a full telnet emulation...

Jan-Erik.
Artem Alimarin
2012-06-19 08:10:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
I know this from configuring PuTTY to correctly work against the serial
console port of AlphaServer DS20's connected to terminal servers. The
COM port IP-ports (10001 on these Lantronix devices) are raw by themself
and does not reply properly to PuTTY trying to set itself up. So, not
knowing better, PuTTY decides that it better set "local echo" on with
the effect that everything written to the VMS console ends up doubled
on screen.
Thank you for the information. I have very similar situation. Putty is
talking to the console, like in your case. The difference is that there
is no terminal server in between. It is not needed, because the emulator
connects the console to a socket. Local echo is disabled and it works.
Jan-Erik Soderholm
2012-06-19 09:42:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Artem Alimarin
Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
I know this from configuring PuTTY to correctly work against the serial
console port of AlphaServer DS20's connected to terminal servers. The
COM port IP-ports (10001 on these Lantronix devices) are raw by themself
and does not reply properly to PuTTY trying to set itself up. So, not
knowing better, PuTTY decides that it better set "local echo" on with
the effect that everything written to the VMS console ends up doubled
on screen.
Thank you for the information. I have very similar situation. Putty is
talking to the console, like in your case. The difference is that there is
no terminal server in between. It is not needed, because the emulator
connects the console to a socket. Local echo is disabled and it works.
Yes, but the point was if whatever you connect to supports the telnet
init commands or not. Your console seems not to (just as the Lantronix
device I used as an example). This is normal for a raw serial service.

If both ens *does* support full telnet negotiation, you don't have to
bother, both ends will ask the other side how to run. This is normalt
where a full terminal emulation is expected.
Stephen Hoffman
2012-06-18 23:43:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Artem Alimarin
Basically the echo setting on both sides of the connection should
correspond to each other. In my case OpenVMS does echo to the console,
so local echo is disabled in putty (and it works).
I emulate UART. Echo is done by the OpenVMS driver, not by UART, as far
as I remember. Am I missing something here?
If I understand correctly, the problem is that some terminal emulators
cannot disable local echo. How would OpenVMS know about it? What would
you do? Change terminal setting in OpenVMS? What does my UART emulation
have to do with it?
In the default configuration, OpenVMS does not expect local echo to be enabled.

If local echo is enabled (and echo in VMS disabled), then using VMS
tends to get weird, particularly with typeahead.

If there's a network driver or host driver involved in the stack here,
then that's potentially providing the "gratuitous" echo when OpenVMS
has explicitly requested no-echo.
V***@SendSpamHere.ORG
2012-06-19 00:50:26 UTC
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Post by Artem
A new version for Linux x64 - AlphaVM-free 1.1.3 is avalailable for download at http://emuvm.com.
It has a number of additions and but fixes.
Practicing software proctology?
--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

Well I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.
V***@SendSpamHere.ORG
2012-06-19 00:58:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Artem
A new version for Linux x64 - AlphaVM-free 1.1.3 is avalailable for download at http://emuvm.com.
It has a number of additions and but fixes.
It is now distributed as a compressed directory, rather than just an
executable. The directory contains the executable, a disk creation tool,
an example configuration etc.
.7z ??? WTF? Why can't you just distribute this as a normal .ZIP???
Last time I looked into this, it was some .EXE (WEENDOZE?) file.
--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

Well I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.
Single Stage to Orbit
2012-06-19 01:29:57 UTC
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Post by V***@SendSpamHere.ORG
Post by Artem
It is now distributed as a compressed directory, rather than just an
executable. The directory contains the executable, a disk creation
tool,
Post by Artem
an example configuration etc.
.7z ??? WTF? Why can't you just distribute this as a normal .ZIP???
Last time I looked into this, it was some .EXE (WEENDOZE?) file.
Years ago they used to distribute shell scripts that had binaries
encoded into themselves and would untar/uncompress itself into a
directory. The original VMware software on [U,Li]n*x were distributed in
this way. Perhaps they can try doing something like this?
--
Tactical Nuclear Kittens
glen herrmannsfeldt
2012-06-19 05:10:45 UTC
Permalink
Single Stage to Orbit <***@munted.eu> wrote:

(snip)
Post by Single Stage to Orbit
Years ago they used to distribute shell scripts that had binaries
encoded into themselves and would untar/uncompress itself into a
directory. The original VMware software on [U,Li]n*x were distributed in
this way. Perhaps they can try doing something like this?
Sounds like shar, shell archive files.

man shar

should tell how to use it, but not much about how it works.

-- glen
Artem Alimarin
2012-06-19 10:09:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by V***@SendSpamHere.ORG
.7z ??? WTF? Why can't you just distribute this as a normal .ZIP???
Last time I looked into this, it was some .EXE (WEENDOZE?) file.
Ok, the point is taken. I have packaged it as a good old .tgz file
(http://emuvm.com).

Zip is somewhat alien to Linux. For instance, my Debian did not have it
as is, unlike 7z, (though it had unzip).

7z has much better compressed rate than zip or gzip. It does not really
matter for this distribution. However, if you use an emulator, you
probably will need to compress huge disk images. In that case high
compression rate is handy.
Simon Clubley
2012-06-19 11:47:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Artem Alimarin
Post by V***@SendSpamHere.ORG
.7z ??? WTF? Why can't you just distribute this as a normal .ZIP???
Last time I looked into this, it was some .EXE (WEENDOZE?) file.
Ok, the point is taken. I have packaged it as a good old .tgz file
(http://emuvm.com).
Zip is somewhat alien to Linux. For instance, my Debian did not have it
as is, unlike 7z, (though it had unzip).
OTOH, zip has been a part of Red Hat based systems for at least a decade
and probably back into the late 90s as well as I can never remember having
to build it under Linux.

As many of your potential customers are probably business customers and
hence may very well want to run it on Red Hat based systems, you should
test your emulator in that environment as well.

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Microsoft: Bringing you 1980s technology to a 21st century world
V***@SendSpamHere.ORG
2012-06-19 12:17:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Artem Alimarin
Post by V***@SendSpamHere.ORG
.7z ??? WTF? Why can't you just distribute this as a normal .ZIP???
Last time I looked into this, it was some .EXE (WEENDOZE?) file.
Ok, the point is taken. I have packaged it as a good old .tgz file
(http://emuvm.com).
Zip is somewhat alien to Linux. For instance, my Debian did not have it
as is, unlike 7z, (though it had unzip).
My Debian has it and DIDN'T know what to do with the .7z
--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

Well I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.
Single Stage to Orbit
2012-06-19 15:56:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by V***@SendSpamHere.ORG
Post by V***@SendSpamHere.ORG
.7z ??? WTF? Why can't you just distribute this as a
normal .ZIP???
Post by V***@SendSpamHere.ORG
Last time I looked into this, it was some .EXE (WEENDOZE?) file.
Ok, the point is taken. I have packaged it as a good old .tgz file
(http://emuvm.com).
Zip is somewhat alien to Linux. For instance, my Debian did not have
it as is, unlike 7z, (though it had unzip).
Bzip2 offers much better compression than any of those and is well
supported on most distributions.
--
Tactical Nuclear Kittens
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