Discussion:
How about RdB for x86 VMS?
(too old to reply)
Dirk Munk
2014-09-03 14:46:32 UTC
Permalink
RdB is quite essential for VMS of course. A few days ago I checked the
Oracle web site, and it only stated that support for RdB 'has an open
end'. That in itself is good, but there was nothing about the new
situation with VMS, let alone some kind of statement about a possible
port to x86. Does anyone know it there are talks between Oracle and VSI
and/or HP about such a port?
Stephen Hoffman
2014-09-03 15:47:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dirk Munk
RdB is quite essential for VMS of course. A few days ago I checked the
Oracle web site, and it only stated that support for RdB 'has an open
end'. That in itself is good, but there was nothing about the new
situation with VMS, let alone some kind of statement about a possible
port to x86. Does anyone know it there are talks between Oracle and VSI
and/or HP about such a port?
Ask VSI and Oracle.

Better yet, wait a year or so for the x86-64 port to have started and
some discussions around third-party products being ported and some
preliminary porting materials, and then ask VSI and Oracle about this —
if there are not published statements posted by then.

VSI is only a month old, hasn't shipped anything yet, and probably
won't have shipped OpenVMS I64 V8.next until 2015, after all.
--
Pure Personal Opinion | HoffmanLabs LLC
JF Mezei
2014-09-03 16:56:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Better yet, wait a year or so for the x86-64 port to have started and
some discussions around third-party products being ported and some
preliminary porting materials,
It would be a great show of confidence if Oracle were to commit "very
soon" to porting their VMS products to x86. That would put a lot of
momemtum back into VMS and send strong signal to other developpers that
VSI and VMS are to be taken seriously.


The longer it takes to see major commitments to VMS, the harder it will
be to get developpers to re-commit to VMS.
Jan-Erik Soderholm
2014-09-03 17:11:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by JF Mezei
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Better yet, wait a year or so for the x86-64 port to have started and
some discussions around third-party products being ported and some
preliminary porting materials,
It would be a great show of confidence if Oracle were to commit "very
soon" to porting their VMS products to x86. That would put a lot of
momemtum back into VMS and send strong signal to other developpers that
VSI and VMS are to be taken seriously.
The longer it takes to see major commitments to VMS, the harder it will
be to get developpers to re-commit to VMS.
I would be very surprised if anyone have a different
opinion about just that! Quite obvious, isn't it? :-)

But as many has said lataly, mr Hoffman as late as today, VSI
has only been "on the map" for a month, and I'm sure other
(like Oracle) must have some time to think things over.

I see no reason to speculate at all before the coming Rdb
technical forums, the first is in the US 2-3 Oct. I will
probably attend the forum in Stockholm the 10-11 Nov.

http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/database/database-technologies/rdb/community/index-101986.html

So give them a break...

Jan-Erik.
JF Mezei
2014-09-03 18:21:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
But as many has said lataly, mr Hoffman as late as today, VSI
has only been "on the map" for a month, and I'm sure other
(like Oracle) must have some time to think things over.
However, I would suspect that VSI would have made quiet inquiries with
the likes of Oracle and other important software vendors prior to making
the decision to invest and take the risks involved in their VMS
endeavour. While they can't make those public, I suspect they have a
good feeling of whether the likes of Oracle will be open to such a port
or not.
Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
I see no reason to speculate at all before the coming Rdb
technical forums, the first is in the US 2-3 Oct. I will
probably attend the forum in Stockholm the 10-11 Nov.
I would suspect that the Oracle folks will have to expect questions on
their intentions with regards to VMS on the 8086. They may use this
opportunity to gauge demand, in which case "we are currently evaluating
the project" would be the standard answer, or perhaps something more
positive such as "we are happy to see VMS being ported to a viable
platform and will certainly consider the market potential to port our
products to it" type of answer. (aka: we want to, but have to wait some
more before making commitment).

However, if VSI manages to get Oracle to make a big commitment now, it
would be a huge show of confidence and a big boost to VSI and VMS.
abrsvc
2014-09-03 18:34:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by JF Mezei
However, if VSI manages to get Oracle to make a big commitment now, it
would be a huge show of confidence and a big boost to VSI and VMS.
I agree with this, but think of the other side: Would Oracle like to make a commitment to supporting the X86 if it does not have a good ROI? If it was me, yea, I'd be talking to VSI, but I would not make any public statements until I had a good handle on whether or not it makes sense.

Dan
m***@gmail.com
2014-09-03 22:15:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by abrsvc
Post by JF Mezei
However, if VSI manages to get Oracle to make a big commitment now, it
would be a huge show of confidence and a big boost to VSI and VMS.
I agree with this, but think of the other side: Would Oracle like to make a commitment to supporting the X86 if it does not have a good ROI? If it was me, yea, I'd be talking to VSI, but I would not make any public statements until I had a good handle on whether or not it makes sense.
Dan
JF Mezei
2014-09-04 01:05:36 UTC
Permalink
On 14-09-03 18:15, ***@gmail.com wrote:
Jan-Erik Soderholm
2014-09-04 15:27:55 UTC
Permalink
... than if the parties have been in negotiations for months,
giving VSI opportunity to also go know at Oracle's door to
feel the terrain on how Oracle would respond...
Here is what one of the main Rdb developers (have been with
Rdb since the start, as far as I know) wrote a few days after
the anouncement from VSI the 1-Aug:


"I don't want to be silent on this very exciting announcement.
I must stress that this isn't a formal Oracle response, but just
my own personal opinion. I've been working with VMS since the
late 1970's starting with X1.5 a field test version. So I have
a very long personal experience with VMS.

I heard the news on the same day as you all, so we are still
taking it in ourselves. I encourage you all to attend (in
person or remotely) the next Oracle Rdb Forum series (USA,
Europe and Australia). As we do every year we will have HP
on site to talk about road maps and to answer questions.
This will be a great place to ask questions. The VMS Bootcamp
is also the same week and I think it will probably be one of the
best in years, attend if you can."
Stephen Hoffman
2014-09-03 18:44:22 UTC
Permalink
What is going on here, folks?

VMS is looking pretty good right now. This for the first time in a
long time, too.

Some folks posting here in comp.os.vms still need to find some problems
with this, or some reason to panic.

How often have you seen an operating system spun off from a major
vendor? Embrace the moment. Enjoy it.

The first of the new VSI software won't be real for around six months —
that's into 2015, for the calendar-challenged — per the
subject-to-change VSI roadmap.

We'll know more after the boot camp and the Oracle Rdb updates, and yet
more as the V8.next Poulson support is released, and more as the V8.x64
work starts up.

If you need an official statement to assuage your management, call or
email VSI. Directly.
--
Pure Personal Opinion | HoffmanLabs LLC
Simon Clubley
2014-09-04 00:37:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Hoffman
What is going on here, folks?
VMS is looking pretty good right now. This for the first time in a
long time, too.
What's caused you to suddenly change your tune from your previous
(accurate) comments about how much work is required to make VMS viable
to newcomers in today's world ?
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Some folks posting here in comp.os.vms still need to find some problems
with this, or some reason to panic.
Some people might be asking questions which don't seem important to
you but are clearly important to them.

When you are heavily emotionally involved in something, it's all too
easy to convince yourself of an altered reality in which "everything
is all ok and if we make something available everyone is going to
buy it because, well, because _we_ think it's great.".

The people at the core of VSI are clearly _heavily_ emotionally
involved in VMS. That's good because it gives them motivation. It's
also potentially bad because it can easily cloud your judgement if
you are not careful.

The people asking questions may care about VMS but not be so emotionally
involved and are looking at VMS in the context of the marketplace as a
whole. This means those questions are a good indicator of the things the
future customers are going to be asking and if you can't answer them,
you've got a problem.

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Microsoft: Bringing you 1980s technology to a 21st century world
Kerry Main
2014-09-04 01:48:18 UTC
Permalink
-----Original Message-----
Simon Clubley
Sent: 03-Sep-14 8:37 PM
Subject: [New Info-vax] The dangers of being too emotionally involved,
was: Re: How about RdB for x86 VMS?
Post by Stephen Hoffman
What is going on here, folks?
VMS is looking pretty good right now. This for the first time in a
long time, too.
What's caused you to suddenly change your tune from your previous
(accurate) comments about how much work is required to make VMS viable
to newcomers in today's world ?
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Some folks posting here in comp.os.vms still need to find some
problems
Post by Stephen Hoffman
with this, or some reason to panic.
Some people might be asking questions which don't seem important to
you but are clearly important to them.
When you are heavily emotionally involved in something, it's all too
easy to convince yourself of an altered reality in which "everything
is all ok and if we make something available everyone is going to
buy it because, well, because _we_ think it's great.".
The people at the core of VSI are clearly _heavily_ emotionally
involved in VMS. That's good because it gives them motivation. It's
also potentially bad because it can easily cloud your judgement if
you are not careful.
The people asking questions may care about VMS but not be so
emotionally
involved and are looking at VMS in the context of the marketplace as a
whole. This means those questions are a good indicator of the things the
future customers are going to be asking and if you can't answer them,
you've got a problem.
Simon.
As Steve indicated, the announcement was great news for anyone
who cares about OpenVMS. It removed some huge anchors and now
the sails are up and some motion forward for this ship has begun.

Now .. will there be challenges and issues that need to be addressed?

Of course - not just from a technology perspective, but also from a
futures marketing, pricing, licensing and support view as well. The big
difference now is that these challenges are now being addressed by
a company 100% focussed on OpenVMS.

The folks at VSI have extensive experience dealing with OpenVMS
Customers for many decades.. the main architect leading the X86-64
port is the same resource who led the Alpha to Itanium port.

It's good to ask questions as it shows passion and interest, but if there
are no answers for the next while, (boot camp?) just remember that
this is to be expected as this new company has only just begun and it
needs to get settled first.

At some point one has to trust VSI will make the right decisions based
on their collective knowledge, their experience and their consultations
with customers, partners and ISV's and yes, c.o.v. participants. I know
they will also have the support and feedback from the HP WW
OpenVMS Ambassadors .. many who represent some of the biggest
WW Cust's and who are more passionate about OpenVMS than the
readers here on c.o.v.

Regards,

Kerry Main
Back to the Future IT Inc.
.. Learning from the past to plan the future

Kerry dot main at backtothefutureit dot com
Stephen Hoffman
2014-09-04 03:56:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Stephen Hoffman
What is going on here, folks?
VMS is looking pretty good right now. This for the first time in a
long time, too.
What's caused you to suddenly change your tune from your previous
(accurate) comments about how much work is required to make VMS viable
to newcomers in today's world ?
You presume I've changed positions here? You'd be wrong. Very wrong.

If you're expecting support statements or announcements ahead of the
presentations at the boot camp, you're going to be disappointed.

Expecting published support statements from third-party vendors at this
early stage is somewhere between premature and overly optimistic, in
the most charitable of phrasing.

Expecting that VSI and Oracle are not aware that customers will want
and need Rdb? VSI needs Rdb for their own internal operations, or
they're looking at a database port.

But if you really do desire official statements on VMS or on
third-party products, contact VSI, or the vendor. Directly.

It's questionable whether most folks need these official statements
with any urgency, too. Beyond some nice polite messages to assuage the
inattentive, and maybe fodder to justify a trip to the boot camp, that
is. At this juncture, most folks using VMS are probably best waiting
and watching. With the exception of some key third-party software
developers, most folks are not going to be working on ports to x86 for
several years, even in the best case.

VSI will establish series of development goals. Boot camp
presentations. Paramount among the engineering goals: get V8.poulson
shipping. After V8.poulson ships, get x64 shipping. There'll
undoubtedly be patch roll-ups and some updates for security patches and
some "housekeeping" work in V8.poulson and x64, and there may be some
features targeted for specific (large) customers, but I'd be surprised
if there were much significant new or general work in either V8.poulson
or in the VMS x86 port.

VSI has a huge pile of work ahead of them, now and beyond V8.poulson
and VMS x86. Using various other platforms regularly in addition to
VMS, it's easy to get a decent idea of how much work is in front of VSI
here, to bring VMS to competitive, though that depends on what markets
they're aiming at. The Apple Xcode IDE and llvm/clang/swift is so far
beyond LSEDIT, it's not even really comparable. But I digress.

I'm among the folks that would like to see VSI succeed. Whether they
will succeed, I don't know. But they're clearly funded, and they're
trying. Any operating system project has to be a very long-term
investment, and not is without financial risk. Whether the investment
and the development effort will pay off for VSI, I don't know.

Are there things here that concern me about VMS and about VSI? Sure.
Fscking support statements for a release that's — again — probably
three years out and in the very best case? Those statements are not
among my concerns. I'm going to allow VSI the benefit of the doubt
here.

As for the current status of VMS looking pretty good right now, five
weeks ago, VMS was supported by HP and bugs fixed, but not being
enhanced, with the most recent VMS release from 2010, and with HP
events and presentations were increasingly covering on user migrations.
In the past five weeks, an additional company with a new team of
developers are starting work on VMS, and with a roadmap for new VMS
releases and updates and a port to commodity hardware. That's a very
positive change. VMS won't really be back until after V8.poulson and
VMS x86 ship. And work. But things are looking better, and in just
the past five weeks.
--
Pure Personal Opinion | HoffmanLabs LLC
JF Mezei
2014-09-04 04:44:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Hoffman
It's questionable whether most folks need these official statements
with any urgency, too.
"urgency" is perhaps exagerated, but consider that last year HP
announced it was killing VMS for real forcing the remaining customer
base to make decisions on their future platforms.

There needs to be enough "umph!" in VSI PR to convince all remaining VMS
customers to kill porting plans or at least put them on hold. And "put
them on hold" means waiting X amount of time for enough hard info to
come out to convince those customers to kill the porting plans to Linux etc.


Porting VMS to x86 won't do much good if none of the 3rd party
middleware and apps become available on it. So those customers will be
looking to see how much of their software will be available on x86.
hence the need to have software developpers/vendor quickly signal they
will re-invest in VMS.

Lets not forget that a lot of VMS software is abandonware with vendors
having stopped working on VMS long ago. That software may have made it
to IA64 but if it was abandonned after that, it may not make it to x86.
Lots more software on Alpha became abandonware before it was ported to IA64.


So while VSI is young/new and we all understand it takes time to ramp up
and deliver, the customers who were in the process of deciding the next
platform need information ASAP to convince them to stick with VMS
instead of continuing with porting projects.

Had the VSI announcement been done *instead* of HP announcing the end of
VMS, things would be very different because customers would not have
been forced to begin porting strategies/plans and would have seen a much
smoother continuation of VMS,

But as it stands, HP poisoned the well with its annoucement, so it will
take much more PR to undo that damage.



It may very well turn out that the upcoming conferences will see a lot
of such information released and the VMS customer base will be given the
warm & fuzzy ffeling about the future of VMS and 3rd party re-committing
to VMS.

However, if that doesn't happen "soon", you may find the remaining VMS
customer base starting to doubt whether this revival effort will be too
little too late.

The longer it takes for that info to come out, the more "umph!" that
info will need to have an impact on the customers.



Note that it is quite possible VSI will use the old DEC strategy of no
marketing and talking directly to customers. They may very well be
telling them privately that Oracle has sigballed theu will support VMS
on x86. This may be enough to stem the exodus begun by the HP
announcements, but we won't know about it, and it misses out on a great
PR oppoprtunity to make noise about big ISVs re-committing to VMS.
Richard Maher
2014-09-04 10:35:53 UTC
Permalink
Look, hats-off to the VSI people! What they have achieved is truly
extraordinary.

So now you've got the HP contracts and that is your biggest (only?) asset.

Get someone to take you IPO and let Larry buy you up.

You all make a couple of mill for just being fat old go-getting VMSers
and VMS lives again.

Win Win Win.
Keith Parris
2014-09-04 19:10:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by JF Mezei
Lets not forget that a lot of VMS software is abandonware with vendors
having stopped working on VMS long ago. That software may have made it
to IA64 but if it was abandoned after that, it may not make it to x86.
Lots more software on Alpha became abandonware before it was ported to IA64.
That makes even more important the following item from the VMS Software,
Inc. Roadmap, page 4, at
http://vmssoftware.com/news/VMS_Software_Roadmap.pdf :

"VAX/Alpha/Itanium to X86 Dynamic/Static Translator"

The ability to run VAX, Alpha, or Itanium executable images, unmodified,
under OpenVMS on x86, is theoretically possible, and would solve a lot
of thorny issues.
j***@yahoo.co.uk
2014-09-04 11:30:15 UTC
Permalink
On Thursday, 4 September 2014 04:56:51 UTC+1, Stephen Hoffman wrote:
[snip]

"In the past five weeks, an additional company with a new team of
developers are starting work on VMS"

Minor rewording?

".., an additional company with a new team headed by and largely
composed of tried tested and industry-proven architects and
developers are resuming their previous work on VMS."

Or something like that, even though it's more words, because it's
important to emphasise the pedigree of the players vs HP's previous
approach?
JF Mezei
2014-09-04 16:44:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@yahoo.co.uk
".., an additional company with a new team headed by and largely
composed of tried tested and industry-proven architects and
developers are resuming their previous work on VMS."
While we can blast HP here, a company such as VSI cannot afford to embed
subtle jabs at HP it si official releases. Anyone who has followed what
has happened will immediatly see the reference to HP firing the real VMS
engineering and stopping work on VMS.

So while the above is something I would say, it isn't something a
company would say.

VSI can be upbeat about the bright future of VMS without refering it its
dark past under Palmer, Capellas, La Carly and the whole slew of execs
who followed her at HP.
Keith Parris
2014-09-04 19:13:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@yahoo.co.uk
[snip]
"In the past five weeks, an additional company with a new team of
developers are starting work on VMS"
Minor rewording?
".., an additional company with a new team headed by and largely
composed of tried tested and industry-proven architects and
developers are resuming their previous work on VMS."
Or something like that, even though it's more words, because it's
important to emphasize the pedigree of the players vs HP's previous
approach?
VSI's press release at
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/vms-software-inc-named-exclusive-developer-of-future-versions-of-openvms-operating-system-2014-07-31
did say:

"VSI has assembled an onshore team of veteran OpenVMS developers, many
harking back to the core DEC team responsible for the technical
excellence that has been the hallmark of OpenVMS."
Paul Sture
2014-09-03 18:38:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
Post by JF Mezei
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Better yet, wait a year or so for the x86-64 port to have started and
some discussions around third-party products being ported and some
preliminary porting materials,
It would be a great show of confidence if Oracle were to commit "very
soon" to porting their VMS products to x86. That would put a lot of
momemtum back into VMS and send strong signal to other developpers that
VSI and VMS are to be taken seriously.
The longer it takes to see major commitments to VMS, the harder it will
be to get developpers to re-commit to VMS.
I would be very surprised if anyone have a different
opinion about just that! Quite obvious, isn't it? :-)
But as many has said lataly, mr Hoffman as late as today, VSI
has only been "on the map" for a month, and I'm sure other
(like Oracle) must have some time to think things over.
I see no reason to speculate at all before the coming Rdb
technical forums, the first is in the US 2-3 Oct. I will
probably attend the forum in Stockholm the 10-11 Nov.
http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/database/database-technologies/rdb/community/index-101986.html
So give them a break...
And Kevin Duffy of Oracle will be at the Boot Camp giving a presentation
"Oracle Rdb and Oracle Database on OpenVMS Business and Product Update"

<https://connect-community.site-ym.com/?oraclerdbandoracle>

2014 OpenVMS Boot Camp Sessions at a Glance:

<https://connect-community.site-ym.com/?2014OVMSSessions>

There are some interesting looking sessions there.
--
If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail
If you own a jackhammer, every problem looks like hours of fun
Stephen Hoffman
2014-09-03 18:13:49 UTC
Permalink
...That would put a lot of momemtum back into VMS and send strong
signal to other developpers that VSI and VMS are to be taken
seriously...
Overcoming the (lack of) momentum of VMS from its position in the
market from just ~35 days ago takes a while. It'll certainly require
new software releases.

I'd wager that VSI is negotiating, hiring, discussing, acquiring
equipment, getting their new building wired and connected and servers
powered up and booted, desks and chairs, bug-tracking systems, customer
relationship packages, license key generation and tracking, accounts
receivable and payable, and all the rest of the details.

They're writing their presentations for the end of the month, too.

Try to see this from the perspective of the VSI folks and the potential
partners and the other folks involved. They're not dummies after all.
They're well aware of what VMS customers will want and will expect.
Then ponder the effort of staffing and launching a business of the
scale of an operating system project, and then remember to cut them all
a little slack. They're just really busy.

VMS is back. Be happy.

Remember to buy'm their beverage of choice, or two, because you're not
porting your code.
--
Pure Personal Opinion | HoffmanLabs LLC
JF Mezei
2014-09-03 18:31:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Hoffman
I'd wager that VSI is negotiating, hiring, discussing, acquiring
equipment, getting their new building wired and connected and servers
powered up and booted, desks and chairs, bug-tracking systems, customer
relationship packages, license key generation and tracking, accounts
receivable and payable, and all the rest of the details.
Desks and chairs ? If they hire younger millenials, isn't it more a
question if getting couches, climbing walls, ping pong tables and making
sure there are plenty of plugs along the walls and fridges stacked with
Red Bull and other "sports" drinks ? :-) :-) :-)

In terms of systems, would it be realistic to expect them to simply take
over the same software that was used by VMS development when it was
within HP ? (in particular code management, build procedures, testing
scripts etc ?).

Wonder if they will split the code base, one for what remains of VMS in
India, and one that VSI will actively develop (and eventually push back
to HP with each new release), or whether they may work on an integrated
code base shared by both HP and VSI ?
Dirk Munk
2014-09-04 11:15:10 UTC
Permalink
...That would put a lot of momemtum back into VMS and send strong
signal to other developpers that VSI and VMS are to be taken seriously...
Overcoming the (lack of) momentum of VMS from its position in the market
from just ~35 days ago takes a while. It'll certainly require new
software releases.
I'd wager that VSI is negotiating, hiring, discussing, acquiring
equipment, getting their new building wired and connected and servers
powered up and booted, desks and chairs, bug-tracking systems, customer
relationship packages, license key generation and tracking, accounts
receivable and payable, and all the rest of the details.
They're writing their presentations for the end of the month, too.
Try to see this from the perspective of the VSI folks and the potential
partners and the other folks involved. They're not dummies after all.
They're well aware of what VMS customers will want and will expect. Then
ponder the effort of staffing and launching a business of the scale of
an operating system project, and then remember to cut them all a little
slack. They're just really busy.
VMS is back. Be happy.
Remember to buy'm their beverage of choice, or two, because you're not
porting your code.
I don't expect Oracle to make commitments right now, that is not
possible. But a simple statement like "We are following the recent
developments on future versions of VMS with great interest" is much
better than saying nothing at all.
Stephen Hoffman
2014-09-04 14:09:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dirk Munk
I don't expect Oracle to make commitments right now, that is not
possible. But a simple statement like "We are following the recent
developments on future versions of VMS with great interest" is much
better than saying nothing at all.
VSI has a big customer event coming up soon? What is the arguably
biggest customer event of the entire VSI corporate history?

Expect to see VSI save many of the VSI-related announcements and new
features and details and many of the VSI third-party partner
statements, and make them all at once.

That's basic marketing, after all. Make the biggest splash you can,
and show the widest support you can, have some third-party speakers,
and put as many partner logos as you can onto the slideware. Y'all did
want VMS marketing, right?

If a VMS customer and potential VSI customer — VSI has no products yet,
after all — doesn't have a sufficient and critical mass of general
statements and of roadmaps and support plans and swag available after
the boot camp, then either have a face-to-face meeting with VSI folks
at the boot camp, or call VSI or the third-party vendor directly after
the event and ask (for more swag, of course).

Are there questions? Sure. Concerns? Definitely. Want answers?
Stop fscking around in comp.os.vms and contact VSI or the third-party
vendor directly.

Or wait a few weeks and wade through the press releases that'll become
available during and after the boot camp, and then call with remaining
questions and concerns.

That written, I would expect to see some general third-party statements
around support for the VSI x86-64 port circa 2018 (IIRC) and relatively
fewer specific commitments. Not this far ahead of the port, and before
VSI has any products shipping.

With what I've seen of enterprise customers and of the larger
third-party layered product providers, y'all do adore these plans and
maps and support statements, but most end-users will want to see and
feel and touch the release and the hardware (circa 2018) before you
really commit to a port. Because your environment is special and
different, as are most bespoke computing environments.

Now if a VMS customer doesn't have a runway here that allows them to
wait that long and isn't satisfied with calling VSI or the vendor, then
those customers should get back to work on a port.
--
Pure Personal Opinion | HoffmanLabs LLC
JF Mezei
2014-09-04 17:03:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Are there questions? Sure. Concerns? Definitely. Want answers?
Stop fscking around in comp.os.vms and contact VSI or the third-party
vendor directly.
The discussions here won't force VSI to answer here. But they give VSI
an idea of the types of questions/priorities that people attending may have.

In other words, by looking at comp.os.vms, VSI can prepare itself for
every possible question that could be asked during the upcoming events
and if they cove most of these questions then a lot of people will be
satisfied.
Post by Stephen Hoffman
maps and support statements, but most end-users will want to see and
feel and touch the release and the hardware (circa 2018) before you
I though x86 was to be circa 2016 ? (which would mean developpers would
start porting mid to late 2015 based on early incomplete beta releases).
Bill Gunshannon
2014-09-04 17:16:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by JF Mezei
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Are there questions? Sure. Concerns? Definitely. Want answers?
Stop fscking around in comp.os.vms and contact VSI or the third-party
vendor directly.
The discussions here won't force VSI to answer here. But they give VSI
an idea of the types of questions/priorities that people attending may have.
That's assuming the people at VSI have the time to waste reading here.
My work is much less demanding or important as what they are getting
into and yet people here must have noticed there were times when I
became somewhat scarce in this domain. That was because even I don't
place USENET at the top of my list of things that must be done.
Post by JF Mezei
In other words, by looking at comp.os.vms, VSI can prepare itself for
every possible question that could be asked during the upcoming events
and if they cove most of these questions then a lot of people will be
satisfied.
Or they can just take the input being provided by paying and potential
paying customers. Hobbyists are nice, but we aren't the ones paying
the bills.
Post by JF Mezei
Post by Stephen Hoffman
maps and support statements, but most end-users will want to see and
feel and touch the release and the hardware (circa 2018) before you
I though x86 was to be circa 2016 ? (which would mean developpers would
start porting mid to late 2015 based on early incomplete beta releases).
The 2018 kinf took me by surprise, too, but at this stage of the game
any estimate is more a guess than certainty. I am willing to wait and
see how things develop.

bill
--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
***@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
Richard Maher
2014-09-04 22:52:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Gunshannon
That's assuming the people at VSI have the time to waste reading here.
I don't know so much. I was very please to see Clare Grant clarifying at
least one issue here and if you all shut up for 5mins she may come back?
Kerry Main
2014-09-05 03:25:55 UTC
Permalink
-----Original Message-----
Richard Maher
Sent: 04-Sep-14 6:53 PM
Subject: Re: [New Info-vax] How about RdB for x86 VMS?
Post by Bill Gunshannon
That's assuming the people at VSI have the time to waste reading here.
I don't know so much. I was very please to see Clare Grant clarifying at
least one issue here and if you all shut up for 5mins she may come back?
Well, with comments like that HE may not want to come back.

No prob's .. I sometimes get the same with my first name as well.

:-)


Regards,

Kerry Main
Back to the Future IT Inc.
.. Learning from the past to plan the future

Kerry dot main at backtothefutureit dot com
Richard Maher
2014-09-05 10:02:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kerry Main
Well, with comments like that HE may not want to come back.
No prob's .. I sometimes get the same with my first name as well.
:-)
I'm used to the Kerrys, Michels, Alexes, Maxs, Dilons etc but Clare?
Geographical significance or was his dad Johnny cash :-)
Simon Clubley
2014-09-05 11:53:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Maher
Post by Kerry Main
Well, with comments like that HE may not want to come back.
No prob's .. I sometimes get the same with my first name as well.
:-)
I'm used to the Kerrys, Michels, Alexes, Maxs, Dilons etc but Clare?
Geographical significance or was his dad Johnny cash :-)
Who is "Clare Grant" ?

Did you by any chance mean "Clair Grant" ? :-)

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Microsoft: Bringing you 1980s technology to a 21st century world
Robert Deininger
2014-09-05 11:54:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Maher
I'm used to the Kerrys, Michels, Alexes, Maxs, Dilons etc but Clare?
Clair, not Clare.

http://www.vmssoftware.com/about_kmgr.html
Richard Maher
2014-09-05 14:30:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Deininger
Post by Richard Maher
I'm used to the Kerrys, Michels, Alexes, Maxs, Dilons etc but Clare?
Clair, not Clare.
http://www.vmssoftware.com/about_kmgr.html
I think we're separated by a common language again :-(

I (this continent + Europe + Africa and Asia) don't know any fucking
blokes called Clare or Claire.

French Canadian fork-less family trees? A boy named Skonetski? 60s
magic-mushroom eater parents with a sister called moon-beam?
Richard Maher
2014-09-05 14:36:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Maher
Post by Robert Deininger
Post by Richard Maher
I'm used to the Kerrys, Michels, Alexes, Maxs, Dilons etc but Clare?
Clair, not Clare.
http://www.vmssoftware.com/about_kmgr.html
I think we're separated by a common language again :-(
I (this continent + Europe + Africa and Asia) don't know any fucking
blokes called Clare or Claire.
French Canadian fork-less family trees? A boy named Skonetski? 60s
magic-mushroom eater parents with a sister called moon-beam?
I get it, those in the UK will be familiar with the old VW add featuring
the bloke with a mo holding up the sign "On week-ends my name is Mandy"?

look, as someone whose high-school mates still refer to as Dick, I don't
want to throw stones but Clarice is not helping the VSI credibility issue.
Paul Sture
2014-09-05 14:43:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Maher
Post by Richard Maher
Post by Robert Deininger
Post by Richard Maher
I'm used to the Kerrys, Michels, Alexes, Maxs, Dilons etc but Clare?
Clair, not Clare.
http://www.vmssoftware.com/about_kmgr.html
I think we're separated by a common language again :-(
I (this continent + Europe + Africa and Asia) don't know any fucking
blokes called Clare or Claire.
French Canadian fork-less family trees? A boy named Skonetski? 60s
magic-mushroom eater parents with a sister called moon-beam?
I get it, those in the UK will be familiar with the old VW add featuring
the bloke with a mo holding up the sign "On week-ends my name is Mandy"?
look, as someone whose high-school mates still refer to as Dick, I don't
want to throw stones but Clarice is not helping the VSI credibility issue.
Had a good night out then Richard?
--
"Bank Holiday Monday will see the worst of the weather as showers sweep
most of the country, except in Scotland where there is no bank holiday."
http://preview.tinyurl.com/scottish-weather
Impeccable logic.
Richard Maher
2014-09-05 23:53:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Sture
Had a good night out then Richard?
After giving up for a couple of months, resistance/tolerance is low.
David Froble
2014-09-05 19:17:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Maher
Post by Richard Maher
Post by Robert Deininger
Post by Richard Maher
I'm used to the Kerrys, Michels, Alexes, Maxs, Dilons etc but Clare?
Clair, not Clare.
http://www.vmssoftware.com/about_kmgr.html
I think we're separated by a common language again :-(
I (this continent + Europe + Africa and Asia) don't know any fucking
blokes called Clare or Claire.
French Canadian fork-less family trees? A boy named Skonetski? 60s
magic-mushroom eater parents with a sister called moon-beam?
I get it, those in the UK will be familiar with the old VW add featuring
the bloke with a mo holding up the sign "On week-ends my name is Mandy"?
look, as someone whose high-school mates still refer to as Dick, I don't
want to throw stones but Clarice is not helping the VSI credibility issue.
"Dick", huh? Sure hope the last name wasn't "head" ....

Clair Grant was working in DEC software development back in the 1970s.
I seem to recall some meetings when some customers were discussing their
needs for VAX/VMS when it first was released.

Clair is most definitely someone you'd want leading the charge at VSI.
Richard Maher
2014-09-05 23:49:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Froble
"Dick", huh? Sure hope the last name wasn't "head" ....
A lot worse and often!
Post by David Froble
Clair Grant was working in DEC software development back in the 1970s. I
seem to recall some meetings when some customers were discussing their
needs for VAX/VMS when it first was released.
Clair is most definitely someone you'd want leading the charge at VSI.
Just poking fun at his name. Lighten up.

FYI: - This guy may have made General by now: -

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/hereford/worcs/6243079.stm
Phillip Helbig---undress to reply
2014-09-07 10:00:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Maher
FYI: - This guy may have made General by now: -
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/hereford/worcs/6243079.stm
The 38-year-old was described as "rock solid" under attack in the
official citation for his award.

Could have been described as "rock-hard".

"I do feel it was very much an award that was made as a figurehead of
a small organisation."

:-)
Bob Gezelter
2014-09-09 01:22:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Maher
Post by Bill Gunshannon
That's assuming the people at VSI have the time to waste reading here.
I don't know so much. I was very please to see Clare Grant clarifying at
least one issue here and if you all shut up for 5mins she may come back?
Richard,

In the future, you want to use the correct pronoun. Clair is a guy.

- Bob Gezelter, http://www.rlgsc.com
Richard Maher
2014-09-09 10:24:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Gezelter
Post by Richard Maher
Post by Bill Gunshannon
That's assuming the people at VSI have the time to waste reading here.
I don't know so much. I was very please to see Clare Grant clarifying at
least one issue here and if you all shut up for 5mins she may come back?
Richard,
In the future, you want to use the correct pronoun. Clair is a guy.
- Bob Gezelter, http://www.rlgsc.com
I haven't had a time-lag like that since analogue phones. You're right
as usual Bob (see much subsequent frivolity) I meant no personal insult
to Clair nor did I wish to upset the not insubstantial COVLGBIT
community. I'm just generally not very correct.
Simon Clubley
2014-09-04 17:33:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by JF Mezei
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Are there questions? Sure. Concerns? Definitely. Want answers?
Stop fscking around in comp.os.vms and contact VSI or the third-party
vendor directly.
The discussions here won't force VSI to answer here. But they give VSI
an idea of the types of questions/priorities that people attending may have.
In other words, by looking at comp.os.vms, VSI can prepare itself for
every possible question that could be asked during the upcoming events
and if they cove most of these questions then a lot of people will be
satisfied.
_Exactly._

We can be annoying here in c.o.v, but the people here want this to
succeed. It's just that some of us have major concerns about the
viability (both technical and marketplace) about what is being
offered.

So far, the questions I have seen have been reasonable ones to ask
and VSI can gather quite a bit of information by seeing how much
interest there is in each specific question asked.
Post by JF Mezei
Post by Stephen Hoffman
maps and support statements, but most end-users will want to see and
feel and touch the release and the hardware (circa 2018) before you
I though x86 was to be circa 2016 ? (which would mean developpers would
start porting mid to late 2015 based on early incomplete beta releases).
2018 sounds about right.

You really are looking at ~3 years minimum from today before VMS is
ready to ship on x86-64. There's no way there will be early incomplete
VMS x86-64 developer kits 12 months from now.

(For example, you can't compare how long it takes to port Linux with how
long it's going to take to port VMS.)

And yes, 3 years is an eternity which is why there needs to be specific
information made available which is good enough to convince people,
here in 2015, to delay any porting efforts.

That's criticial because once they actually start a port (instead of
just planning one), you have lost them as a future VMS customer.
Just _saying_ "we will have something shipping in 3 years" isn't good
enough. You need to convince people with credible and solid evidence
to back this up and which they can take to their bosses.

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Microsoft: Bringing you 1980s technology to a 21st century world
David Froble
2014-09-05 03:01:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simon Clubley
That's criticial because once they actually start a port (instead of
just planning one), you have lost them as a future VMS customer.
Why do you state that?

There have been, I believe, at least three (3) statements on c.o.v that
ports have been put on hold.

If a user has a VMS solution that they know will not be as good ported
to another environment, then any possibility of continuing on VMS might
appeal to them.

Don't get into JF mode. I don't know how even he thinks that Oracle can
make a commitment to support an OS / HW platform that doesn't as yet
exist. First get VMS on x86, then see if some vendors will commit to it.

For example, if the VMS users using RDB tell Oracle that either they
give them RDB on VMS on x86, or they are going to move to another
database. What do you think Oracle will do, assuming the port will be
rather easy? I assume that because prior ports of VMS to new HW have
been just that, rather easy.

Now, before you answer that question, take a look at just how much
Oracle pulls in per year from RDB users ....
Simon Clubley
2014-09-05 11:51:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Froble
Post by Simon Clubley
That's criticial because once they actually start a port (instead of
just planning one), you have lost them as a future VMS customer.
Why do you state that?
There have been, I believe, at least three (3) statements on c.o.v that
ports have been put on hold.
AIUI, those were in the _planning_ stage, not the actual doing the port
stage which means it was still viable to put them on hold while further
information emerges.
Post by David Froble
Don't get into JF mode.
$ set response/mode=good_natured

Ouch. You _really_ know how to hurt a guy. :-)

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Microsoft: Bringing you 1980s technology to a 21st century world
David Froble
2014-09-05 19:22:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by David Froble
Post by Simon Clubley
That's criticial because once they actually start a port (instead of
just planning one), you have lost them as a future VMS customer.
Why do you state that?
There have been, I believe, at least three (3) statements on c.o.v that
ports have been put on hold.
AIUI, those were in the _planning_ stage, not the actual doing the port
stage which means it was still viable to put them on hold while further
information emerges.
Even if some users had completed the work to allow them to move to
something else, they might still rather be on VMS, and why wouldn't they
do so if the opportunity came up?
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by David Froble
Don't get into JF mode.
$ set response/mode=good_natured
Ouch. You _really_ know how to hurt a guy. :-)
Crotchety old geezer ....
David Froble
2014-09-05 19:20:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Froble
I assume that because prior ports of VMS to new HW have
been just that, rather easy.
Having re-read that, I think I meant to say "prior ports of applications
on VMS" ....

I blame it on the fingers ...
Thomas Wirt
2014-09-05 19:24:52 UTC
Permalink
<snip>
Post by Simon Clubley
long it's going to take to port VMS.)
And yes, 3 years is an eternity which is why there needs to be specific
information made available which is good enough to convince people,
here in 2015, to delay any porting efforts.
That's criticial because once they actually start a port (instead of
just planning one), you have lost them as a future VMS customer.
Just _saying_ "we will have something shipping in 3 years" isn't good
enough. You need to convince people with credible and solid evidence
to back this up and which they can take to their bosses.
You seem to be forgetting that most VMS sites probably still have at
least one VMS advocate. Yes we will need to see progress from VSI. At
some point we need to see proof that their road map is meaningful, but
for now the commitment to x86 is enough. I don't really care about a
port to x86 for my business anytime soon. I just got new hardware 2
years ago and am very happy with the performance. I doubt I will need
new VMS servers in the next 6 years.

With that said, the promise of x86 means that 7 years from now there is
a supported VMS and an improved path. Possibly even a slightly growing
installed base. For others I know they will want those x86 boxes for
VMS right away, but the promise and eventually proof of the promise is
enough to allow us to keep our businesses committed to VMS indefinably.

It was the 2020 EOL that concerned businesses, not the limits of the
hardware.
Post by Simon Clubley
Simon.
--
Thomas Wirt
Operations Manager, IS Dept.
Kittle's Home Furnishings
Indianapolis, IN
JF Mezei
2014-09-06 02:36:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Thomas Wirt
It was the 2020 EOL that concerned businesses, not the limits of the
hardware.
A business that has been adding new apps to Linux/Windows instead of
their existing VMS system will not see the need for additional horsepower.

However, if VSI starts to make it possible to run modern web servers,
Postfix etc onto VMS, then perhaps companies will start to want to move
some functionality back to VMS, at which point, having added capacity
(aka upgrade to x86) becomes important.

If engineers will be bysin with maintaining 8.4 on Poulson/Kittson and
then porting 8.4 by 2018, then it won't be until much after 2018 that
new functionality will come to VMS and start to make VMS attractive.
Bill Gunshannon
2014-09-08 12:36:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Thomas Wirt
<snip>
Post by Simon Clubley
long it's going to take to port VMS.)
And yes, 3 years is an eternity which is why there needs to be specific
information made available which is good enough to convince people,
here in 2015, to delay any porting efforts.
That's criticial because once they actually start a port (instead of
just planning one), you have lost them as a future VMS customer.
Just _saying_ "we will have something shipping in 3 years" isn't good
enough. You need to convince people with credible and solid evidence
to back this up and which they can take to their bosses.
You seem to be forgetting that most VMS sites probably still have at
least one VMS advocate.
True. But i suspect that that person is like me, here at the University.
No one takes them seriously and they are considered IT dinosaurs to placated
but generally ignored. :-)
Post by Thomas Wirt
Yes we will need to see progress from VSI. At
some point we need to see proof that their road map is meaningful, but
for now the commitment to x86 is enough. I don't really care about a
port to x86 for my business anytime soon. I just got new hardware 2
years ago and am very happy with the performance. I doubt I will need
new VMS servers in the next 6 years.
With that said, the promise of x86 means that 7 years from now there is
a supported VMS and an improved path. Possibly even a slightly growing
installed base. For others I know they will want those x86 boxes for
VMS right away, but the promise and eventually proof of the promise is
enough to allow us to keep our businesses committed to VMS indefinably.
It was the 2020 EOL that concerned businesses, not the limits of the
hardware.
I still think the key to an expanding user base is going to be getting
back into the .edu market. Sadly, I don't expect to be around long
enough to head up the charge to do that. brief conversations with
people here involved in teaching things like OSes show promise, but
any educational program is going to have to offer something that a
college professor sees as valuable. It takes time and effort to write
a curriculum and it there is a lot of buerocracy getting it into use.
The professor has to see value in it before he begins or he won't.

It is interesting that after all the years I spent trying to convince
this place to get involved with the IBM Academic Alliance (with no
success) one of the professors just pointed out the great new program
from IBM he learned about -- The IBM Academic Alliance.

bill
--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
***@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
David Froble
2014-09-08 15:02:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Gunshannon
It is interesting that after all the years I spent trying to convince
this place to get involved with the IBM Academic Alliance (with no
success) one of the professors just pointed out the great new program
from IBM he learned about -- The IBM Academic Alliance.
bill
Typical all mouth and no ears ....

If you push it, they don't listen.

If they "discover" it, it's the greatest thing since sliced bread.

What else did you expect?
Phillip Helbig---undress to reply
2014-09-08 23:31:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Gunshannon
I still think the key to an expanding user base is going to be getting
back into the .edu market.
It's probably the only way.
Richard Maher
2014-09-09 10:27:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phillip Helbig---undress to reply
Post by Bill Gunshannon
I still think the key to an expanding user base is going to be getting
back into the .edu market.
It's probably the only way.
Short answer "Buckleys!".

A more beer oriented gaze into the horizon could see a Sever-Sent Event
caliphate spewing out so much more than a non-AST based platform?
Simon Clubley
2014-09-09 11:56:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Maher
Post by Phillip Helbig---undress to reply
Post by Bill Gunshannon
I still think the key to an expanding user base is going to be getting
back into the .edu market.
It's probably the only way.
Short answer "Buckleys!".
A more beer oriented gaze into the horizon could see a Sever-Sent Event
caliphate spewing out so much more than a non-AST based platform?
$ set response/mode=good_natured

Richard, have you ever considered not posting while sloshed ? :-)

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Microsoft: Bringing you 1980s technology to a 21st century world
David Froble
2014-09-09 19:30:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Richard Maher
Post by Phillip Helbig---undress to reply
Post by Bill Gunshannon
I still think the key to an expanding user base is going to be getting
back into the .edu market.
It's probably the only way.
Short answer "Buckleys!".
A more beer oriented gaze into the horizon could see a Sever-Sent Event
caliphate spewing out so much more than a non-AST based platform?
$ set response/mode=good_natured
Richard, have you ever considered not posting while sloshed ? :-)
Simon.
But, then he'd never post ....

:-)
Richard Maher
2014-09-09 22:22:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Richard Maher
Post by Phillip Helbig---undress to reply
Post by Bill Gunshannon
I still think the key to an expanding user base is going to be getting
back into the .edu market.
It's probably the only way.
Short answer "Buckleys!".
A more beer oriented gaze into the horizon could see a Sever-Sent Event
caliphate spewing out so much more than a non-AST based platform?
$ set response/mode=good_natured
Richard, have you ever considered not posting while sloshed ? :-)
Simon.
Sadly, I actually write/talk that way most of the time unaided. A mixed
blessing that literary circles refer to a "to wax tourettes" :-)
m***@gmail.com
2014-09-09 22:35:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Maher
Post by Phillip Helbig---undress to reply
Post by Bill Gunshannon
I still think the key to an expanding user base is going to be getting
back into the .edu market.
It's probably the only way.
Short answer "Buckleys!".
Perhaps folk outside Oz don't understand this...

Buckleys & Nunn was a large department store in Melbourne, Australia, for decades, closing I believe, in the 1960's.

"Buckleys" is therefore short for "Buckleys and Nunn" and means "none". Often said in response to a question about the chances of something happening.


John
Phillip Helbig---undress to reply
2014-09-09 23:24:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@gmail.com
Perhaps folk outside Oz don't understand this...
Buckleys & Nunn was a large department store in Melbourne, Australia, for decades, closing I believe, in the 1960's.
"Buckleys" is therefore short for "Buckleys and Nunn" and means "none". Often said in response to a question about the chances of something happening.
Ozzy Cockney rhyming slang.

Cockney rhyming slang is so bizarre it's good, once one gets used to it.
These days, one can get lots of info from the innertubes, so go have a
butcher's.
Paul Sture
2014-09-10 02:15:43 UTC
Permalink
On 2014-09-09, Phillip Helbig---undress to reply
Post by Phillip Helbig---undress to reply
Post by m***@gmail.com
Perhaps folk outside Oz don't understand this...
Buckleys & Nunn was a large department store in Melbourne, Australia,
for decades, closing I believe, in the 1960's.
"Buckleys" is therefore short for "Buckleys and Nunn" and means "none".
Often said in response to a question about the chances of something
happening.
Ozzy Cockney rhyming slang.
Not a surprise really. If you come across a bunch of Australians and
Cockneys together it's not hard to hear the Cockney heritage in Australian
accents.
Post by Phillip Helbig---undress to reply
Cockney rhyming slang is so bizarre it's good, once one gets used to it.
These days, one can get lots of info from the innertubes, so go have a
butcher's.
But it gets old pretty quickly when you hear the same few phrases time and
again.

The English language has beaten me to that observation with the word
"hackneyed". Hackney (as in Hackney Cabs aka London Taxis) is in the area
defined as the East End of London.

OED entry:

hackneyed |ˈhaknɪd|
adjective
(of a phrase or idea) having been overused; unoriginal and trite:
hackneyed old sayings.

;-)
--
So excited for the Apple Watch. For centuries, we’ve checked the time
by looking at our phones. Having it on your wrist? Genius.
-- Ellen DeGeneres
Jan-Erik Soderholm
2014-09-04 17:43:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by JF Mezei
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Are there questions? Sure. Concerns? Definitely. Want answers?
Stop fscking around in comp.os.vms and contact VSI or the third-party
vendor directly.
The discussions here won't force VSI to answer here. But they give VSI
an idea of the types of questions/priorities that people attending may have.
Not at all! Questions raised on c.o.v usualy have little do to
with what real/paying customers asks about. I've been at most
VMS tech days in Stockholm the last decades, and I do not
think that c.o.v has been mentioned even once. And the
issues major customers raise are not those seen here.
Well, some of them maybe...

Some of the idiotic issues raised here are of course
non-issues for real customers.
Post by JF Mezei
In other words, by looking at comp.os.vms, VSI can prepare itself for
every possible question that could be asked during the upcoming events
and if they cove most of these questions then a lot of people will be
satisfied.
They probably doesn need that. I think they already know
very well what the issues are they are facing.
Craig A. Berry
2014-09-04 18:26:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by JF Mezei
Post by Stephen Hoffman
maps and support statements, but most end-users will want to see and
feel and touch the release and the hardware (circa 2018) before you
I though x86 was to be circa 2016 ? (which would mean developpers would
start porting mid to late 2015 based on early incomplete beta releases).
For goodness sake listen to the conference call (the roadmap doesn't
even have years assigned to anything). The goal is a 24-month porting
effort starting in about 6 months. So if all goes according to plan
(which it almost never does), the port would likely be complete in Q1
2017, but so far (understandably) there are not a lot of specifics about
whether that's first boot, first beta, or production-quality release. I
suspect somewhere towards the earlier end of that, so Hoff's estimate of
shipping systems in 2018 sounds about right.
David Froble
2014-09-05 03:04:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Craig A. Berry
Post by JF Mezei
Post by Stephen Hoffman
maps and support statements, but most end-users will want to see and
feel and touch the release and the hardware (circa 2018) before you
I though x86 was to be circa 2016 ? (which would mean developpers would
start porting mid to late 2015 based on early incomplete beta releases).
For goodness sake listen to the conference call (the roadmap doesn't
even have years assigned to anything). The goal is a 24-month porting
effort starting in about 6 months. So if all goes according to plan
(which it almost never does), the port would likely be complete in Q1
2017, but so far (understandably) there are not a lot of specifics about
whether that's first boot, first beta, or production-quality release. I
suspect somewhere towards the earlier end of that, so Hoff's estimate of
shipping systems in 2018 sounds about right.
Don't know why anyone is worrying about dates. IA-64 will be around
more than long enough. VMS on x86 (if all goes well) will be available
long before it becomes a critical issue.
JF Mezei
2014-09-05 04:50:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Froble
Don't know why anyone is worrying about dates. IA-64 will be around
more than long enough.
But you aren't going to get any new customers for VMS until it is on
x86. It is silly for a shop to decide to move to VMS now. It is an
antique abandonned operating system (with hope of revival) on a dead
hardware platform.

Until VMS is on x86 and we see a roadmap with faster pace of development
once the engineers are unleashed, it will not be a marketable product
outside the installed base.

No new customer = much harder business case for VSI.


You should also consider whether the VSI team will have the resources to
start to add new features to VMS to make it more marketable right away,
or whether they will only start this once the port to x86 is done. In
that case, porting to x86 becomes an even greater priority.
David Froble
2014-09-05 19:27:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by JF Mezei
Post by David Froble
Don't know why anyone is worrying about dates. IA-64 will be around
more than long enough.
But you aren't going to get any new customers for VMS until it is on
x86. It is silly for a shop to decide to move to VMS now. It is an
antique abandonned operating system (with hope of revival) on a dead
hardware platform.
Until VMS is on x86 and we see a roadmap with faster pace of development
once the engineers are unleashed, it will not be a marketable product
outside the installed base.
I'm going to bet my special "betting dollar" on this. My bet is that
initially the VSI plan is looking pretty much only at the existing
customers. Perhaps there are more than you allow for?

Really, is anything else reasonable? I think not. It's hard enough to
sell to new customers when you have a product ready. With no product,
it would be unreasonable.

Crawl, then walk, then run ....

The crawl hasn't even started yet. Give the youngster a chance.
Thomas Wirt
2014-09-05 19:37:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Froble
Post by JF Mezei
Post by David Froble
Don't know why anyone is worrying about dates. IA-64 will be around
more than long enough.
But you aren't going to get any new customers for VMS until it is on
x86. It is silly for a shop to decide to move to VMS now. It is an
antique abandonned operating system (with hope of revival) on a dead
hardware platform.
Until VMS is on x86 and we see a roadmap with faster pace of development
once the engineers are unleashed, it will not be a marketable product
outside the installed base.
I'm going to bet my special "betting dollar" on this. My bet is that
initially the VSI plan is looking pretty much only at the existing
customers. Perhaps there are more than you allow for?
Really, is anything else reasonable? I think not. It's hard enough to
sell to new customers when you have a product ready. With no product,
it would be unreasonable.
Crawl, then walk, then run ....
The crawl hasn't even started yet. Give the youngster a chance.
I completely agree. Right now you can not run VMS on the latest IA64
hardware. In less than 12 months you will be able to run VMS on it.
VSI understands that the immediate issue is not getting new customers.
It is keeping existing customers from fleeing. For anyone that is
already using VMS for business, IA64 is a really good, cost effective
solution. For those of us buying VMS products this is not a surprise.
I dare anyone to tell me about how unaffordable their migration of VMS
to IA64 was. I doubt I will get any credible stories.

Until VSI fails to show reasonable progress as described by their
admittedly vague road map, I will be glad and hope for the best.
--
Thomas Wirt
Operations Manager, IS Dept.
Kittle's Home Furnishings
Indianapolis, IN
Keith Parris
2014-09-04 19:48:43 UTC
Permalink
I though x86 was to be circa 2016 ? (which would mean developers would
start porting mid to late 2015 based on early incomplete beta releases).
VSI said Poulson (i4 Servers), then Kittson, then an estimated 24 months
for the x86 port.
Jan-Erik Soderholm
2014-09-04 20:55:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith Parris
I though x86 was to be circa 2016 ? (which would mean developers would
start porting mid to late 2015 based on early incomplete beta releases).
VSI said Poulson (i4 Servers), then Kittson, then an estimated 24 months
for the x86 port.
As long as everyone know x86 *is* comming, it realy doesn't
matter *when*, as long as it is in time for the IA64 support
rundown. If it is 2016, 17, 18 realy doesn't matter.

Better do it well then fast.

Jan-Erik.
Bill Gunshannon
2014-09-05 11:55:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
Post by Keith Parris
I though x86 was to be circa 2016 ? (which would mean developers would
start porting mid to late 2015 based on early incomplete beta releases).
VSI said Poulson (i4 Servers), then Kittson, then an estimated 24 months
for the x86 port.
As long as everyone know x86 *is* comming, it realy doesn't
matter *when*, as long as it is in time for the IA64 support
rundown. If it is 2016, 17, 18 realy doesn't matter.
This I can't agree with.
1) You have people who, for whatever reason, did not move to Itanium.
How much longer can they stay on Alpha?
2) Most businesses today can't see that far into the future. Promising
them something in 4-5 years is the same as telling them it will never
be.

For many, Itanium was never the answer, this has not changed because
X86-64 is on the (distant) horizon. I would hope that while work on
the intermediate IA64 versions are being done work will actually be
progressing at some level for the desired x86-64 port. I think it
can be done and I think the people at VSI are the ones who can do it.
But it is an uphill battle and they will have a lot of, not necessarily
technical, obstacles in their path. I wish them all the lusck in the
world and really wish there was a way I could use some of my free time
to help. But I am (as you all know) not a VMS expert or even a mid-level
experienced VMS guy. So I will stand back, keep my fingers crossed and
watch how things go.
Post by Jan-Erik Soderholm
Better do it well then fast.
Sadly, both are necessary.

bill
--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
***@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
Bob Koehler
2014-09-05 18:44:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Gunshannon
This I can't agree with.
1) You have people who, for whatever reason, did not move to Itanium.
How much longer can they stay on Alpha?
Almost as ong as my customers have kept there VAXen going. In my
experience much VAX hardware was a little more reliable than some
of the Alphas I've had.
Craig A. Berry
2014-09-04 23:19:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith Parris
I though x86 was to be circa 2016 ? (which would mean developers would
start porting mid to late 2015 based on early incomplete beta releases).
VSI said Poulson (i4 Servers), then Kittson, then an estimated 24 months
for the x86 port.
You're implying they wouldn't do the x86_64 port until after Kittson,
which is definitely not what they said.
Keith Parris
2014-09-05 21:32:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Craig A. Berry
Post by Keith Parris
VSI said Poulson (i4 Servers), then Kittson, then an estimated 24 months
for the x86 port.
You're implying they wouldn't do the x86_64 port until after Kittson,
which is definitely not what they said.
My notes from the Q&A session at the end of the Connect VSI/HP webcast say:

"Q: Timeframe for x86 port?
A: Port to Poulson first. If HP does Kittson, then do Kittson. Once
the end of IA64, then 24 months to do x86 port."

Anyone have a pointer to a recording of that webcast?
Stephen Hoffman
2014-09-05 21:40:42 UTC
Permalink
... the Connect VSI/HP webcast ...
Anyone have a pointer to a recording of that webcast?
Direct audio link
<https://connect-community.site-ym.com/resource/resmgr/2014_OpenVMS_Bootcamp/7-31-14_OpenVMS_SIG_Meeting_.mp3>


VSI announcement links round-up: <http://labs.hoffmanlabs.com/node/1889>
--
Pure Personal Opinion | HoffmanLabs LLC
Keith Parris
2014-09-05 22:33:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Post by Keith Parris
Anyone have a pointer to a recording of that webcast?
<https://connect-community.site-ym.com/resource/resmgr/2014_OpenVMS_Bootcamp/7-31-14_OpenVMS_SIG_Meeting_.mp3>
At 12:29 Eddie Orcutt says: "And if HP comes out with a Kittson
version, a follow-on to Poulson, then we will also support that with a
version of VMS for that, in addition to supporting new I/O options for
that platform, too. And then we are looking at going to the x86 server."

Given that Kittson is now to be plug-compatible with Poulson rather than
Xeon and manufactured in the same (proven) 32-nm process as Poulson
(http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/processors/itanium/itanium-kittson-update.html),
it seems unlikely there will be much difficulty or delay in supporting
servers based on that processor before moving on to the x86 port.

"Intel's most recent Itanium chip, code-named Poulson, was released in
late 2012. The company's next chip, code-named Kittson, is due for
release in 2015." -- InfoWorld, Feb. 20, 2014
JF Mezei
2014-09-06 02:43:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith Parris
Given that Kittson is now to be plug-compatible with Poulson rather than
Xeon and manufactured in the same (proven) 32-nm process as Poulson
(http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/processors/itanium/itanium-kittson-update.html),
it seems unlikely there will be much difficulty or delay in supporting
servers based on that processor before moving on to the x86 port.
Consider a theoretical case where HP delays Kittson becoming available
until 2018. This means VSI only gets to start working on x86 by 2018,
and a deliverable by 2020. VMS will have long decomposed by then.

I feel the policy would be to start the port to x86 now in parralel to
qualifying VMS for Poulson. When Kittson is productized, you divert a
few resources to qualify VMS for it and that only slows x86 port by a
few weeks.
Bob Koehler
2014-09-08 12:59:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by JF Mezei
I feel the policy would be to start the port to x86 now in parralel to
qualifying VMS for Poulson.
If you believe in it, are you going to fund it?
David Froble
2014-09-08 15:05:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Koehler
Post by JF Mezei
I feel the policy would be to start the port to x86 now in parralel to
qualifying VMS for Poulson.
If you believe in it, are you going to fund it?
Ya know, telling someone their ideas aren't anything because they aren't
spending money, sure is a good way to stifle ideas ....
Keith Parris
2014-09-09 22:06:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by JF Mezei
Consider a theoretical case where HP delays Kittson becoming available
until 2018.
Given that i4 Servers/Blades based on Poulson came out in the latter
part of 2012, it would make far more sense for HP to make Kittson-based
systems available as soon as Kittson is available from Intel, to provide
to HP-UX, NonStop and now also OpenVMS customers the advantages that
Kittson will presumably have over Poulson.
Post by JF Mezei
This means VSI only gets to start working on x86 by 2018,
and a deliverable by 2020. VMS will have long decomposed by then.
No, OpenVMS customers will have been able to move up to i4
Servers/Blades in the interim. VSI plans to do enhancements as well,
according to their Roadmap at
http://vmssoftware.com/news/VMS_Software_Roadmap.pdf

Far from decomposing, OpenVMS will be seen as having a promising future.
JF Mezei
2014-09-09 23:04:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith Parris
Given that i4 Servers/Blades based on Poulson came out in the latter
part of 2012, it would make far more sense for HP to make Kittson-based
systems available as soon as Kittson is available from Intel, to provide
to HP-UX, NonStop and now also OpenVMS customers the advantages that
Kittson will presumably have over Poulson.
Nop. HP wants to sell Poulsons as long as it remains somewehat
marketable. Only once Poulson sales have dried up will they start
selling systems with the Kittson chips in them.

It is also very likely that both were FABbed at same time, with better
quality ones labeled "Kittson" and capable of higher clock rate and the
rest labeled "Poulson".

HP also have to make decisions on how/when they are forced to announce
the end of the line for IA64 and HP-UX. Perhaps they are still working
on what to do with HP-UX and want to delay things. But once Kittson
starts to appear at retail, HP is pretty much forced to admit it is the
last upgrade in that server line.
Keith Parris
2014-09-10 23:27:38 UTC
Permalink
Nope. HP wants to sell Poulsons as long as it remains somewhat
marketable. Only once Poulson sales have dried up will they start
selling systems with the Kittson chips in them.
HP didn't wait for i2 Server sales to dry up before introducing i4
Servers with Poulson chips.
It is also very likely that both were FABbed at same time, with better
quality ones labeled "Kittson" and capable of higher clock rate and the
rest labeled "Poulson".
Intel's Roadmap at
http://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/public/us/en/documents/roadmaps/public-roadmap-article.pdf
doesn't support your hypothesis of Kittson merely being a speed-binning
of Poulson.
JF Mezei
2014-09-19 06:03:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith Parris
Intel's Roadmap at
http://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/public/us/en/documents/roadmaps/public-roadmap-article.pdf
doesn't support your hypothesis of Kittson merely being a speed-binning
of Poulson.
I see nothing in it that defines what Kittson MIGHT have. Kittson is
displayed in a dotted line as if it isn't yet sure it will exist.

Remember that Kittson was downgraded to be like Poulson a few years ago.
David Froble
2014-09-19 06:18:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by JF Mezei
Post by Keith Parris
Intel's Roadmap at
http://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/public/us/en/documents/roadmaps/public-roadmap-article.pdf
doesn't support your hypothesis of Kittson merely being a speed-binning
of Poulson.
I see nothing in it that defines what Kittson MIGHT have. Kittson is
displayed in a dotted line as if it isn't yet sure it will exist.
Remember that Kittson was downgraded to be like Poulson a few years ago.
I finally see the downside of the x86 port ....

JF will then start blasting away at the x86 designers and vendors ....
Shark8
2014-09-19 19:22:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Froble
I finally see the downside of the x86 port ....
JF will then start blasting away at the x86 designers and vendors ....
Well, to be fair IBM and AMD could use a bit of blasting:
-- Intel has sold off pretty much everything it developed itself,
HW-wise; which seems to indicate it could be going the SW route (I'm not
sure they'll do another architecture, though they certainly *could* --
and with the patents and R&D-team they have, they could make a pretty
interesting one; say with HW support for [OOP-]objects, direct HLL
support [say being able to load RTLs into a co-processor, on-chip
parsers], generic VM co-processor, etc)
-- AMD needs a little prodding; they've kind of settled down and don't
seem to be as innovative as they were several years ago. [IMO]

And x86 /really/ is pretty ugly insofar as an instruction-set goes.
Paul Sture
2014-09-05 21:48:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith Parris
Post by Craig A. Berry
Post by Keith Parris
VSI said Poulson (i4 Servers), then Kittson, then an estimated 24 months
for the x86 port.
You're implying they wouldn't do the x86_64 port until after Kittson,
which is definitely not what they said.
"Q: Timeframe for x86 port?
A: Port to Poulson first. If HP does Kittson, then do Kittson. Once
the end of IA64, then 24 months to do x86 port."
Anyone have a pointer to a recording of that webcast?
I've just checked and it's still there.

<https://connect-community.site-ym.com/resource/resmgr/2014_OpenVMS_Bootcamp/7-31-14_OpenVMS_SIG_Meeting_.mp3>
--
"Bank Holiday Monday will see the worst of the weather as showers sweep
most of the country, except in Scotland where there is no bank holiday."
http://preview.tinyurl.com/scottish-weather
Impeccable logic.
JF Mezei
2014-09-05 04:40:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith Parris
VSI said Poulson (i4 Servers), then Kittson, then an estimated 24 months
for the x86 port.
I sure hope the deal doesn't tie VSI to wait until after Kittson is
available before porting to x86.

HP has the luxury of being able to delay Kittson as much as it wants,
but VSI doesn't have the luxury to delay the port x86 for very long.

Also, since Kittson is nothing but a speed bump from Poulson (in my
opinion, the better quality Poulson chips set to higher clock rate), VSI
won't have much work to do.
David Froble
2014-09-05 19:34:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by JF Mezei
Post by Keith Parris
VSI said Poulson (i4 Servers), then Kittson, then an estimated 24 months
for the x86 port.
I sure hope the deal doesn't tie VSI to wait until after Kittson is
available before porting to x86.
HP has the luxury of being able to delay Kittson as much as it wants,
but VSI doesn't have the luxury to delay the port x86 for very long.
Also, since Kittson is nothing but a speed bump from Poulson (in my
opinion, the better quality Poulson chips set to higher clock rate), VSI
won't have much work to do.
So, what is needed?

Perhaps some of the people involved need to get back up to speed on VMS?

I doubt it will take much for the Poulson / Kittson work. But it will
be educational. Perhaps very useful.

If you want my opinion, (and whenever have I withheld it), thought about
x86 was happening before the VSI announcement, and will continue at some
level with most of the people at VSI. I believe "timesharing" is an old
and venerated concept.

Why is it that most of us can sit back and wait for Christmas, but you
cannot seem to do so ??????????????????
Richard Maher
2014-09-03 22:27:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dirk Munk
RdB is quite essential for VMS of course. A few days ago I checked the
Oracle web site, and it only stated that support for RdB 'has an open
end'. That in itself is good, but there was nothing about the new
situation with VMS, let alone some kind of statement about a possible
port to x86. Does anyone know it there are talks between Oracle and VSI
and/or HP about such a port?
Is there an echo in here or was I talking to myself again?

Don't forget the OracleXg (client at least) as well! WebLogic? PeopleSoft

3Rd party, 3rd party, 3rd party, 3rd party . . .
clair.grant@vmssoftware.com
2014-09-05 21:17:15 UTC
Permalink
Just for the record, I have never considered reading cov to be a waste of time. We appreciate your comments and perspective. For the most part they reflect what we hear in many forums as well as directly from customers. We completely understand the sense of urgency for concrete information but I'll quote a sign I have always had on my office wall...no one cares how fast you can get it wrong. As Hoff says, we are still ordering furniture (literally). But, we are also doing many of the things you are expecting, like putting together serious development schedules. You'll get details about Poulson and x86 when we believe in them. You'll be hearing things soon.

Clair Grant (Mr., for those who don't me)
Director of R&D
VMS Software Inc.
Bill Gunshannon
2014-09-08 12:46:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@vmssoftware.com
Just for the record, I have never considered reading cov to be a waste of time. We appreciate your comments and perspective. For the most part they reflect what we hear in many forums as well as directly from customers. We completely understand the sense of urgency for concrete information but I'll quote a sign I have always had on my office wall...no one cares how fast you can get it wrong. As Hoff says, we are still ordering furniture (literally). But, we are also doing many of the things you are expecting, like putting together serious development schedules. You'll get details about Poulson and x86 when we believe in them. You'll be hearing things soon.
Clair Grant (Mr., for those who don't me)
Director of R&D
VMS Software Inc.
Well, as l ong as you're here and I have your attention.... :-)

Has any thought been given to a serious Educational Program? Is there
going to be someone specific that would likely be working on this as
things progress? As stated before, I tried, unsuccessfully, to work
on this with HP. I am definitely willing to work with someone to try
and do it again. I think it will be even more challenging now because
there is yet another level of buerocracy that wasn't there last tiem
and I certainly don't know anything of VSI's actual aggreement with HP.
And, the other potential fly in the ointment is that I suspect there
will be a strong push to send me packing at the end of our next fiscal
year which would be the end of May and Graduation. But, I'm here if I
can help.

bill
--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
***@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
Phillip Helbig---undress to reply
2014-09-07 09:48:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dirk Munk
RdB is quite essential for VMS of course.
For some people yes, for some now. I suspect that a high percentage of
paying customers use Rdb, though---certainly higher than in the general
VMS population.
Post by Dirk Munk
A few days ago I checked the
Oracle web site, and it only stated that support for RdB 'has an open
end'. That in itself is good, but there was nothing about the new
situation with VMS, let alone some kind of statement about a possible
port to x86. Does anyone know it there are talks between Oracle and VSI
and/or HP about such a port?
This was mentioned in the conference call, and IIRC on the Rdb JCC list.
Richard Maher
2014-09-11 09:58:34 UTC
Permalink
I had a need to read up about Berkeley DB the other day ('cos God am I
sick of LDAP!) and although I don't want to use it I was struck by the
constant claims of the innovative IN-PROCESS API!

I can't remember/recall if Rdb for Windows used an external server but
in-process, protected-mode APIs will always be a passion/hobby of mine.
Why couldn't VMS have made it easier, less-restrictive, and more supported?
Simon Clubley
2014-09-11 11:44:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Maher
I had a need to read up about Berkeley DB the other day ('cos God am I
sick of LDAP!) and although I don't want to use it I was struck by the
constant claims of the innovative IN-PROCESS API!
Just watch the licence with current versions of Berkeley DB, Richard.

When Oracle took control of it, they changed the licence to be a dual
licence. This means that unless you pay Oracle a licence fee, then
programs you distribute using Berkeley DB fall under the terms of a
GPL style license and you have to distribute the source code as well.

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Microsoft: Bringing you 1980s technology to a 21st century world
Continue reading on narkive:
Loading...