Discussion:
2009 VMS Bootcamp notice
(too old to reply)
JF Mezei
2009-01-07 12:01:36 UTC
Permalink
I got an email from Sue, and it hadn't been posted here yet. Hope Sue
won't mind my posting it here.

From: McQuaid, Ann
To: Skonetski, Susan
Cc: Herman, Wendy
Subject: boot camp

Hello Boot Camp Attendees,

As you know, the OpenVMS team prides itself on conducting the very
highest quality Technical Training in the industry, allowing for a
collaborative exchange of information and ideas with Customers and
Partners around the world. There is no doubt that the knowledge shared
and the personal connections made during these face-2-face events is
invaluable! However, given today's economic status and realizing that
many companies are restricting travel including HP, we find ourselves in
a position of having to cancel this year's OpenVMS Boot Camp.

As always we greatly appreciate your business and welcome your calls and
emails.


Ann McQuaid
General Manager
OpenVMS, Tru64, Alpha & MCBS Customer Programs
Hewlett-Packard Company
***@hp.com<mailto:***@hp.com>
Admin: Susan Christie
598-467-9999

------------------------------------

I wonder if HP might replace this with travelling presentations (if
people can't afford to travel, perhaps get Sue and a few enginers to
travel to people).

In terms of Mrs McQuaid's title, does anyone know what MCBS is ?

Does her title really mean "General manager of mature technologies" ?
V***@SendSpamHere.ORG
2009-01-07 12:29:35 UTC
Permalink
In article <0050a3de$0$4649$***@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <***@vaxination.ca> writes:
>I got an email from Sue, and it hadn't been posted here yet. Hope Sue
>won't mind my posting it here.
>
>From: McQuaid, Ann
>To: Skonetski, Susan
>Cc: Herman, Wendy
>Subject: boot camp
>
>Hello Boot Camp Attendees,
>
>As you know, the OpenVMS team prides itself on conducting the very
>highest quality Technical Training in the industry, allowing for a
>collaborative exchange of information and ideas with Customers and
>Partners around the world. There is no doubt that the knowledge shared
>and the personal connections made during these face-2-face events is
>invaluable! However, given today's economic status and realizing that
>many companies are restricting travel including HP, we find ourselves in
>a position of having to cancel this year's OpenVMS Boot Camp.
>
>As always we greatly appreciate your business and welcome your calls and
>emails.
>
>
> Ann McQuaid
>General Manager
>OpenVMS, Tru64, Alpha & MCBS Customer Programs
>Hewlett-Packard Company
>***@hp.com<mailto:***@hp.com>
>Admin: Susan Christie
>598-467-9999
>
>------------------------------------
>
>I wonder if HP might replace this with travelling presentations (if
>people can't afford to travel, perhaps get Sue and a few enginers to
>travel to people).
>
>In terms of Mrs McQuaid's title, does anyone know what MCBS is ?
>
>Does her title really mean "General manager of mature technologies" ?

Microsoft Certified Bull Shit?
Master of Ceremonious Bull Shit?

Seriously,...

I find way too many acronyms in the HP space that have no meaning to me.
I wish they would publish their own acronym translation page on HP's web
site.

--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

"Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"
Joe Sewell
2009-01-07 12:57:30 UTC
Permalink
On Jan 7, 7:29 am, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> In article <0050a3de$0$4649$***@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <***@vaxination.ca> writes:
>
>
>
>
>
> >I got an email from Sue, and it hadn't been posted here yet. Hope Sue
> >won't mind my posting it here.
>
> >From: McQuaid, Ann
> >To: Skonetski, Susan
> >Cc: Herman, Wendy
> >Subject: boot camp
>
> >Hello Boot Camp Attendees,
>
> >As you know, the OpenVMS team prides itself on conducting the very
> >highest quality Technical Training in the industry, allowing for a
> >collaborative exchange of information and ideas with Customers and
> >Partners around the world.  There is no doubt that the knowledge shared
> >and the personal connections made during these face-2-face events is
> >invaluable!  However, given today's economic status and realizing that
> >many companies are restricting travel including HP, we find ourselves in
> >a position of having to cancel this year's OpenVMS Boot Camp.
>
> >As always we greatly appreciate your business and welcome your calls and
> >emails.
>
> > Ann McQuaid
> >General Manager
> >OpenVMS, Tru64, Alpha & MCBS Customer Programs
> >Hewlett-Packard Company
> >***@hp.com<mailto:***@hp.com>
> >Admin: Susan Christie
> >598-467-9999
>
> >------------------------------------
>
> >I wonder if HP might replace this with travelling presentations (if
> >people can't afford to travel, perhaps get Sue and a few enginers to
> >travel to people).
>
> >In terms of Mrs McQuaid's title, does anyone know what MCBS is ?
>
> >Does her title really mean "General manager of mature technologies" ?
>
> Microsoft Certified Bull Shit?
> Master of Ceremonious Bull Shit?
>
> Seriously,...
>
> I find way too many acronyms in the HP space that have no meaning to me.
> I wish they would publish their own acronym translation page on HP's web
> site.
>

Courtesy of Acronym Finder (http://www.acronymfinder.com)...

MCBS Medicare Current Beneficiary Survey
MCBS Microcomputer Business Services

It's probably safe to assume the latter expansion.
Jan-Erik Söderholm
2009-01-07 13:15:00 UTC
Permalink
Joe Sewell wrote:
> On Jan 7, 7:29 am, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>> In article <0050a3de$0$4649$***@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <***@vaxination.ca> writes:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> I got an email from Sue, and it hadn't been posted here yet. Hope Sue
>>> won't mind my posting it here.
>>> From: McQuaid, Ann
>>> To: Skonetski, Susan
>>> Cc: Herman, Wendy
>>> Subject: boot camp
>>> Hello Boot Camp Attendees,
>>> As you know, the OpenVMS team prides itself on conducting the very
>>> highest quality Technical Training in the industry, allowing for a
>>> collaborative exchange of information and ideas with Customers and
>>> Partners around the world. There is no doubt that the knowledge shared
>>> and the personal connections made during these face-2-face events is
>>> invaluable! However, given today's economic status and realizing that
>>> many companies are restricting travel including HP, we find ourselves in
>>> a position of having to cancel this year's OpenVMS Boot Camp.
>>> As always we greatly appreciate your business and welcome your calls and
>>> emails.
>>> Ann McQuaid
>>> General Manager
>>> OpenVMS, Tru64, Alpha & MCBS Customer Programs
>>> Hewlett-Packard Company
>>> ***@hp.com<mailto:***@hp.com>
>>> Admin: Susan Christie
>>> 598-467-9999
>>> ------------------------------------
>>> I wonder if HP might replace this with travelling presentations (if
>>> people can't afford to travel, perhaps get Sue and a few enginers to
>>> travel to people).
>>> In terms of Mrs McQuaid's title, does anyone know what MCBS is ?
>>> Does her title really mean "General manager of mature technologies" ?
>> Microsoft Certified Bull Shit?
>> Master of Ceremonious Bull Shit?
>>
>> Seriously,...
>>
>> I find way too many acronyms in the HP space that have no meaning to me.
>> I wish they would publish their own acronym translation page on HP's web
>> site.
>>
>
> Courtesy of Acronym Finder (http://www.acronymfinder.com)...
>
> MCBS Medicare Current Beneficiary Survey
> MCBS Microcomputer Business Services
>
> It's probably safe to assume the latter expansion.

Or rather none of them. "Microcomputer" ??
Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing
2009-01-08 01:37:13 UTC
Permalink
In article <a49d048f-32b7-4f67-b8a9-***@13g2000yql.googlegroups.com>, Joe Sewell <***@spamcop.net> writes:
>On Jan 7, 7:29=A0am, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>> In article <0050a3de$0$4649$***@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei=
>***@vaxination.ca> writes:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >I got an email from Sue, and it hadn't been posted here yet. Hope Sue
>> >won't mind my posting it here.
>>
>> >From: McQuaid, Ann
>> >To: Skonetski, Susan
>> >Cc: Herman, Wendy
>> >Subject: boot camp
>>
>> >Hello Boot Camp Attendees,
>>
>> >As you know, the OpenVMS team prides itself on conducting the very
>> >highest quality Technical Training in the industry, allowing for a
>> >collaborative exchange of information and ideas with Customers and
>> >Partners around the world. =A0There is no doubt that the knowledge share=
>d
>> >and the personal connections made during these face-2-face events is
>> >invaluable! =A0However, given today's economic status and realizing that
>> >many companies are restricting travel including HP, we find ourselves in
>> >a position of having to cancel this year's OpenVMS Boot Camp.
>>
>> >As always we greatly appreciate your business and welcome your calls and
>> >emails.
>>
>> > Ann McQuaid
>> >General Manager
>> >OpenVMS, Tru64, Alpha & MCBS Customer Programs
>> >Hewlett-Packard Company
>> >***@hp.com<mailto:***@hp.com>
>> >Admin: Susan Christie
>> >598-467-9999
>>
>> >------------------------------------
>>
>> >I wonder if HP might replace this with travelling presentations (if
>> >people can't afford to travel, perhaps get Sue and a few enginers to
>> >travel to people).
>>
>> >In terms of Mrs McQuaid's title, does anyone know what MCBS is ?
>>
>> >Does her title really mean "General manager of mature technologies" ?
>>
>> Microsoft Certified Bull Shit?
>> Master of Ceremonious Bull Shit?
>>
>> Seriously,...
>>
>> I find way too many acronyms in the HP space that have no meaning to me.
>> I wish they would publish their own acronym translation page on HP's web
>> site.
>>
>
>Courtesy of Acronym Finder (http://www.acronymfinder.com)...
>
>MCBS Medicare Current Beneficiary Survey
>MCBS Microcomputer Business Services
>
>It's probably safe to assume the latter expansion.

I was getting Mission Critical Business Servers

-- Alan
IanMiller
2009-01-07 13:31:47 UTC
Permalink
MCBS = Mission Critical Business Systems?
V***@SendSpamHere.ORG
2009-01-07 14:01:08 UTC
Permalink
In article <fe765ece-6ab9-4c32-9f0e-***@z28g2000prd.googlegroups.com>, IanMiller <***@uk2.net> writes:
>MCBS = Mission Critical Business Systems?

;)


--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

"Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"
Main, Kerry
2009-01-07 15:08:24 UTC
Permalink
> -----Original Message-----
> From: info-vax-***@rbnsn.com [mailto:info-vax-***@rbnsn.com] On
> Behalf Of IanMiller
> Sent: January 7, 2009 8:32 AM
> To: info-***@rbnsn.com
> Subject: Re: [Info-vax] 2009 VMS Bootcamp notice
>
> MCBS = Mission Critical Business Systems?
> _______________________________________________


Fyi & fwiw, u are rite.

:-)


Regards

Kerry Main
Senior Consultant
HP Services Canada
Voice: 613-254-8911
Fax: 613-591-4477
kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom
(remove the DOT's and AT)

OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.
Main, Kerry
2009-01-07 15:08:24 UTC
Permalink
> -----Original Message-----
> From: info-vax-***@rbnsn.com [mailto:info-vax-***@rbnsn.com] On
> Behalf Of IanMiller
> Sent: January 7, 2009 8:32 AM
> To: info-***@rbnsn.com
> Subject: Re: [Info-vax] 2009 VMS Bootcamp notice
>
> MCBS = Mission Critical Business Systems?
> _______________________________________________


Fyi & fwiw, u are rite.

:-)


Regards

Kerry Main
Senior Consultant
HP Services Canada
Voice: 613-254-8911
Fax: 613-591-4477
kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom
(remove the DOT's and AT)

OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.
DaveG
2009-01-07 15:04:38 UTC
Permalink
On Jan 7, 6:01 am, JF Mezei <***@vaxination.ca> wrote:
> I got an email from Sue, and it hadn't been posted here yet. Hope Sue
> won't mind my posting it here.
>
> From: McQuaid, Ann
> To: Skonetski, Susan
> Cc: Herman, Wendy
> Subject: boot camp
>
> Hello Boot Camp Attendees,
>
> As you know, the OpenVMS team prides itself on conducting the very
> highest quality Technical Training in the industry, allowing for a
> collaborative exchange of information and ideas with Customers and
> Partners around the world.  There is no doubt that the knowledge shared
> and the personal connections made during these face-2-face events is
> invaluable!  However, given today's economic status and realizing that
> many companies are restricting travel including HP, we find ourselves in
> a position of having to cancel this year's OpenVMS Boot Camp.
>
> As always we greatly appreciate your business and welcome your calls and
> emails.
>
>  Ann McQuaid
> General Manager
> OpenVMS, Tru64, Alpha & MCBS Customer Programs
> Hewlett-Packard Company
> ***@hp.com<mailto:***@hp.com>
> Admin: Susan Christie
> 598-467-9999
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> I wonder if HP might replace this with travelling presentations (if
> people can't afford to travel, perhaps get Sue and a few enginers to
> travel to people).
>
> In terms of Mrs McQuaid's title, does anyone know what MCBS is ?
>
> Does her title really mean "General manager of mature technologies" ?

In years past, we've had people from the OpenVMS organization come to
Chicagoland for day long LUG (now chapter) events. We've also had
individuals out for normal LUG meetings. Last were Meg W. and Leo D.
back in '06. Being in a large metro area helps, although our
attendance is way down from what it used to be.

Helps to have an OpenVMS Ambassador in the area as we do. We are
fortunate to have a very good one in our neck of the woods. In fact,
we have a meeting later this evening to plan for '09.

Dave...
DaveG
2009-01-07 15:27:04 UTC
Permalink
On Jan 7, 9:04 am, DaveG <***@abbott.com> wrote:
> On Jan 7, 6:01 am, JF Mezei <***@vaxination.ca> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > I got an email from Sue, and it hadn't been posted here yet. Hope Sue
> > won't mind my posting it here.
>
> > From: McQuaid, Ann
> > To: Skonetski, Susan
> > Cc: Herman, Wendy
> > Subject: boot camp
>
> > Hello Boot Camp Attendees,
>
> > As you know, the OpenVMS team prides itself on conducting the very
> > highest quality Technical Training in the industry, allowing for a
> > collaborative exchange of information and ideas with Customers and
> > Partners around the world.  There is no doubt that the knowledge shared
> > and the personal connections made during these face-2-face events is
> > invaluable!  However, given today's economic status and realizing that
> > many companies are restricting travel including HP, we find ourselves in
> > a position of having to cancel this year's OpenVMS Boot Camp.
>
> > As always we greatly appreciate your business and welcome your calls and
> > emails.
>
> >  Ann McQuaid
> > General Manager
> > OpenVMS, Tru64, Alpha & MCBS Customer Programs
> > Hewlett-Packard Company
> > ***@hp.com<mailto:***@hp.com>
> > Admin: Susan Christie
> > 598-467-9999
>
> > ------------------------------------
>
> > I wonder if HP might replace this with travelling presentations (if
> > people can't afford to travel, perhaps get Sue and a few enginers to
> > travel to people).
>
> > In terms of Mrs McQuaid's title, does anyone know what MCBS is ?
>
> > Does her title really mean "General manager of mature technologies" ?
>
> In years past, we've had people from the OpenVMS organization come to
> Chicagoland for day long LUG (now chapter) events.  We've also had
> individuals out for normal LUG meetings.  Last were Meg W. and Leo D.
> back in '06.  Being in a large metro area helps, although our
> attendance is way down from what it used to be.
>
> Helps to have an OpenVMS Ambassador in the area as we do.  We are
> fortunate to have a very good one in our neck of the woods.  In fact,
> we have a meeting later this evening to plan for '09.
>
> Dave...- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

This came to mind. Perhaps the move of the OpenVMS org from NH to MA
played into this. The NH location "featured" a hotel and mini-
conference center within walking distance of ZKO. Maybe no so in
Marlboro.

Dave...
JF Mezei
2009-01-07 23:53:16 UTC
Permalink
Asking a question here, not trying to pass judgement.

What is the feeling about cancellation of the bootcamp ? Is this purely
because they feel not enough people would show up due to economic
circumstances ?

Or is there an added issue of being a great excuse to lower the activity
level of VMS within HP ?


In terms of MCBS, could someone explain to me what Mrs McQuaid's
relationship would be with regards to NSK/Tandem/ , the disk drive
business as well as HP-UX ?

What exactly is MCBS Customer Programs ?
Bill Gunshannon
2009-01-08 14:03:14 UTC
Permalink
In article <00514aac$0$4669$***@news.astraweb.com>,
JF Mezei <***@vaxination.ca> writes:
> Asking a question here, not trying to pass judgement.
>
> What is the feeling about cancellation of the bootcamp ? Is this purely
> because they feel not enough people would show up due to economic
> circumstances ?

I have never had the opportunity (my employer wanted all my VMS stuff to
go away so they were very unlikely to fund my trip) but I thought the
problem in the past (up to last year, at least) was the opposite. More
people interested than there were seats available.

>
> Or is there an added issue of being a great excuse to lower the activity
> level of VMS within HP ?

That would be my vote!!

bill

--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
***@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
V***@SendSpamHere.ORG
2009-01-08 19:47:51 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@mid.individual.net>, ***@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>In article <00514aac$0$4669$***@news.astraweb.com>,
> JF Mezei <***@vaxination.ca> writes:
>> Asking a question here, not trying to pass judgement.
>>
>> What is the feeling about cancellation of the bootcamp ? Is this purely
>> because they feel not enough people would show up due to economic
>> circumstances ?
>
>I have never had the opportunity (my employer wanted all my VMS stuff to
>go away so they were very unlikely to fund my trip) but I thought the
>problem in the past (up to last year, at least) was the opposite. More
>people interested than there were seats available.

These events have always been well attended IMHO.

The thing I will miss is discussing topics over beers with the engineers.
I've garnered more useful info that way than from sitting in most session
lectures. I'm indebted to Mr. Reagan for his insights into the Itanium's
instruction set and to Mr. Nelson for his streadfast answering of my ELF
and DWARF format question, all over a few too many beers in the Tara bar.

--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

"Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"
DaveG
2009-01-08 15:00:49 UTC
Permalink
On Jan 7, 5:53 pm, JF Mezei <***@vaxination.ca> wrote:
> Asking a question here, not trying to pass judgement.
>
> What is the feeling about cancellation of the bootcamp ? Is this purely
> because they feel not enough people would show up due to economic
> circumstances ?

I wonder about the cancellation in terms of predicted attendance and/
or economic conditions. AFAIK, they filled the house for all past
bootcamps. Without starting the registration process (which I assume
wasn't) how could they possibly know that not enough people would
show? I suspect there are other things going on here. Just my
opinion, FWIW. Probably not much.

> Or is there an added issue of being a great excuse to lower the activity
> level of VMS within HP ?

I don't know.

> In terms of MCBS, could someone explain to me what Mrs McQuaid's
> relationship would be with regards to NSK/Tandem/ , the disk drive
> business as well as HP-UX ?
>
> What exactly is MCBS Customer Programs ?

Sue took care of that one.
JF Mezei
2009-01-08 23:48:33 UTC
Permalink
DaveG wrote:

> I wonder about the cancellation in terms of predicted attendance and/
> or economic conditions. AFAIK, they filled the house for all past
> bootcamps.

Anyone who has listened to the media will know that the economic
situation in the USA (and UK for that matter) is not very good.

There are probably two sides to this: HP cutting costs, and customers
cutting costs by reducing travel/conference expenses.

I do not know if Bootcamp was revenu neutral for HP or if it consumed
much in terms of HP budgets/human resources.

If HP expects this to be revenu neutral (or has a cap on how much it
wants to spend on it), then there would be concerns about a minumum
number of attendants required to reach break-even point.

If HP had wanted, I am sure they could have found a way to make it work,
even with reduced attendance (scale it down a bit, but give more
intimate contact between customers and engineers).

HP could have pitched something like "in these hard economic times, you
can save a lot of money by leveraging the most our of your legacy
systems, so come to Bootcamp and learn what you can do with VMS" type of
stuff.

It would have been nice to have seen some mention of HP committed to
bringing bootcamp back once economic activity resumes.

The last HP financials were good. (but mostly ignored by the media who
are focused on finding only bad economic news). But I suspect that HP
will get hit with bad news next quarter.

My main concern is HP announcing on June 25 that 8.4 will be the last
VMS release and that from then on, HP wudl release only bug fixes and
patches to make VMS work on new IA64 machines as long as new IA64
machines are made.
DaveG
2009-01-09 15:21:57 UTC
Permalink
On Jan 8, 5:48 pm, JF Mezei <***@vaxination.ca> wrote:
> DaveG wrote:
> > I wonder about the cancellation in terms of predicted attendance and/
> > or economic conditions.  AFAIK, they filled the house for all past
> > bootcamps.
>
> Anyone who has listened to the media will know that the economic
> situation in the USA (and UK for that matter) is not very good.
>
> There are probably two sides to this: HP cutting costs, and customers
> cutting costs by reducing travel/conference expenses.
>
> I do not know if Bootcamp was revenu neutral for HP or if it consumed
> much in terms of HP budgets/human resources.
>
> If HP expects this to be revenu neutral (or has a cap on how much it
> wants to spend on it), then there would be concerns about  a minumum
> number of attendants required to reach break-even point.
>
> If HP had wanted, I am sure they could have found a way to make it work,
> even with reduced attendance (scale it down a bit, but give more
> intimate contact between customers and engineers).
>
> HP could have pitched something like "in these hard economic times, you
> can save a lot of money by leveraging the most our of your legacy
> systems, so come to Bootcamp and learn what you can do with VMS" type of
> stuff.
>
> It would have been nice to have seen some mention of HP committed to
> bringing bootcamp back once economic activity resumes.
>
> The last HP financials were good. (but mostly ignored by the media who
> are focused on finding only bad economic news). But I suspect that HP
> will get hit with bad news next quarter.
>
> My main concern is HP announcing on June 25 that 8.4 will be the last
> VMS release and that from then on, HP wudl release only bug fixes and
> patches to make VMS work on new IA64 machines as long as new IA64
> machines are made.

Your last paragraph mentions that 8.4 is the last release for
OpenVMS. I try to keep up with things and I don't recall reading or
hearing that news. Could you post a link/official doc/whatever to
verify.
JF Mezei
2009-01-09 15:56:24 UTC
Permalink
DaveG wrote:

> Your last paragraph mentions that 8.4 is the last release for
> OpenVMS.

Sorry, didn't mean to make it sound that way. I meant that I *feared*
that it might be the case. There have been no official announcements
about that.

I am not predicting that this will be the case either.

I think that if development is stopped, it is more likely to mimic the
broken promises about VAX. When 8.4 is released, they will still say
that VMS is being developped, but by the time people start to wonder
when the next release will come, HP will start to say that consultatios
with the installed base revealed that there was no demand for a new
version and that people prefered the stability of their systems etc etc.

The other way VMS could be killed is if it is combined with the end of
IA64 announcement, at which point, HP would commit to port NSK and HP-UX
to the 8086, and not mention VMS.
JF Mezei
2009-01-10 22:27:18 UTC
Permalink
I've heard through the grapevine that 8.4 is just about cooked and ready
to be taken out of the oven and served to customers.

Considering that Bootcamp is the only major VMS event left , and
considering they will have a brand spanking new version of VMS, it seems
to me that bootcamp would be of great value to a lot of people this year
since HP will have a lot of new features to announce.

I don't know how many people the event needs to break even. But if
enough people show interest, and Sue can go to her superiors and show
that despite the economic situation, she can get more people than
necessary to break even, perhaps HP will reconsider.

I would urge everyone whose employer would be willing to fund going to
the bootcamp this year to get in touch with Sue to let her know. The
more people do it, the more chances of bootcamp happening.

If Bootcamp is self funding/revenu neutral, and if HP has every
intention to continue to develop VMS, then it has no reason to not hold
the event.

Does HP really want more "HP is killing VMS" debates to start at this
point in time ?


I don't hear about HP opening VMS stores in every major city around the
world to replace Bootcamp. So Bootcamp remains a criticial event to keep
the customer base energised, loyal to HP and fully appraised of the new
features of VMS.

If all else fails, perhaps Sue could organise a pub crawl after hours
that would bring customers and engineers together to discuss kernel
issues over a Guiness or two ?
Jan-Erik Söderholm
2009-01-10 22:32:52 UTC
Permalink
JF Mezei wrote:

> Considering that Bootcamp is the only major VMS event left...

Is it ?

> , and
> considering they will have a brand spanking new version of VMS, it seems
> to me that bootcamp would be of great value to a lot of people this year
> since HP will have a lot of new features to announce.

It's perfectly OK to get any information available through
the "net", the "web" or whatever.

> Does HP really want more "HP is killing VMS" debates to start at this
> point in time ?

So don't start one then.

> So Bootcamp remains a criticial event to keep
> the customer base energised, loyal to HP and fully appraised of the new
> features of VMS.

No, the new features of VMS itself are.

You're mainly tiresome and you are most of the time doing
VMS a dis-service. It's your right to do so, of course...
JF Mezei
2009-01-11 02:16:43 UTC
Permalink
Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote:

> You're mainly tiresome and you are most of the time doing
> VMS a dis-service. It's your right to do so, of course...

You can think whatever you want about me. But that won't help convince
HP to reverse their decision. Sending letters to Sue or higher up the
food chain at HP might.

Doing nothing garantees that HP's decision stands, and lack of
resistance from the customer base gives HP the messsage that the VMS
customer base is now capable of taking bad news without much resistance.
David J Dachtera
2009-01-11 05:59:20 UTC
Permalink
Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote:
>
> JF Mezei wrote:
>
> > Considering that Bootcamp is the only major VMS event left...
>
> Is it ?

Can you name another (U.S./Canada event, not Eur/Asian or African)?

> > , and
> > considering they will have a brand spanking new version of VMS, it seems
> > to me that bootcamp would be of great value to a lot of people this year
> > since HP will have a lot of new features to announce.
>
> It's perfectly OK to get any information available through
> the "net", the "web" or whatever.

...unless that's the only source. If one doesn't know to look for it,
the chances of one stumbling upon it are quite low, indeed.

> > Does HP really want more "HP is killing VMS" debates to start at this
> > point in time ?
>
> So don't start one then.

Preaching to the choir, the acolytes, the deacons, the sacristans, etc.

> > So Bootcamp remains a criticial event to keep
> > the customer base energised, loyal to HP and fully appraised of the new
> > features of VMS.
>
> No, the new features of VMS itself are.

If the user base doesn't hear about them (no one reads the doc.'s
anymore - is it reasonable to expect that people will read the release
notes?), how will they find out? How will they learn how to use those
new featires to the best advantage.

> You're mainly tiresome and you are most of the time doing
> VMS a dis-service.

How so? (I could forward you privately some correspondence (not authored
by me) which expresses a contrary viewpoint. (Hint: It's from "an HP
insider".))

My own personal opinion is that I must disagree with you, Jan-Erik.
Actually, I would nominate JF as an OpenVMS "Champion" (as Sue uses the
word).

> It's your right to do so, of course...

In America, at least, for now...

D.J.D.
David J Dachtera
2009-01-11 05:47:04 UTC
Permalink
JF Mezei wrote:
> [snip]
> Does HP really want more "HP is killing VMS" debates to start at this
> point in time ?

Does HP even really give two spits one way or the other?

I'd lay odds that word from the top is, "hasten the demise by whatever
means necessary". Otherwise, why all the "secrecy"? If they've nothing
to hide, they should have no compunction about coming clean in public
forum.

> I don't hear about HP opening VMS stores in every major city around the
> world to replace Bootcamp. So Bootcamp remains a criticial event to keep
> the customer base energised,

Oops! Missed a step there! First the customer base must BECOME
energized! THEN that can be maintained! (Can't maintain what doesn't
exist.)

> loyal to HP

HA! Considering the number of knives protruding from the customer base's
back with the HP logo on them, not likely by any stretch of the
imagination!

> and fully appraised of the new
> features of VMS.

Only one side of the coin. A return to the "listens panel" seems almost
mandatory now that VMS has "lost its rudder".

> If all else fails, perhaps Sue could organise a pub crawl after hours
> that would bring customers and engineers together to discuss kernel
> issues over a Guiness or two ?

Actually, I'd like to see if there's a surviving VMS VAR (or two (or
three (or ...))) who would be willing to partner with (me?) to do an
independent event. We'd have to lure the former Digits to it to make it
a worthwhile event, and see if we could at least get HP to not block the
current crew from participating. Also, I'd like to see the attendees be
free to spread the exuberance beyond the event, unfettered by NDAs and
such, bit I'm sure that's the most unlikely part of the whole pipe
dream.

(DT: If you think you could sell your bosses on it, drop me a note
privately.)

D.J.D.
Christopher
2009-01-12 16:40:50 UTC
Permalink
On Jan 11, 12:47 am, David J Dachtera <***@spam.comcast.net>
wrote:
> JF Mezei wrote:
> > [snip]
> > Does HP really want more "HP is killing VMS" debates to start at this
> > point in time ?
>
> Does HP even really give two spits one way or the other?
>
> I'd lay odds that word from the top is, "hasten the demise by whatever
> means necessary". Otherwise, why all the "secrecy"? If they've nothing
> to hide, they should have no compunction about coming clean in public
> forum.
>

HP has really draconian marketing rules. We had to attend a big
training session about what we're allowed to say. Even if we have
solid internal plans to release a feature, we're pretty much not
allowed to publish that anywhere publicly. That's just how the whole
company operates. Doesn't have anything to do with VMS.
Richard B. Gilbert
2009-01-12 18:15:20 UTC
Permalink
Christopher wrote:
> On Jan 11, 12:47 am, David J Dachtera <***@spam.comcast.net>
> wrote:
>> JF Mezei wrote:
>>> [snip]
>>> Does HP really want more "HP is killing VMS" debates to start at this
>>> point in time ?
>> Does HP even really give two spits one way or the other?
>>
>> I'd lay odds that word from the top is, "hasten the demise by whatever
>> means necessary". Otherwise, why all the "secrecy"? If they've nothing
>> to hide, they should have no compunction about coming clean in public
>> forum.
>>
>
> HP has really draconian marketing rules. We had to attend a big
> training session about what we're allowed to say. Even if we have
> solid internal plans to release a feature, we're pretty much not
> allowed to publish that anywhere publicly. That's just how the whole
> company operates. Doesn't have anything to do with VMS.

That's hardly unusual. You don't promise anything until you are certain
that you can deliver it!
David J Dachtera
2009-01-13 02:51:44 UTC
Permalink
"Richard B. Gilbert" wrote:
>
> Christopher wrote:
> > On Jan 11, 12:47 am, David J Dachtera <***@spam.comcast.net>
> > wrote:
> >> JF Mezei wrote:
> >>> [snip]
> >>> Does HP really want more "HP is killing VMS" debates to start at this
> >>> point in time ?
> >> Does HP even really give two spits one way or the other?
> >>
> >> I'd lay odds that word from the top is, "hasten the demise by whatever
> >> means necessary". Otherwise, why all the "secrecy"? If they've nothing
> >> to hide, they should have no compunction about coming clean in public
> >> forum.
> >>
> >
> > HP has really draconian marketing rules. We had to attend a big
> > training session about what we're allowed to say. Even if we have
> > solid internal plans to release a feature, we're pretty much not
> > allowed to publish that anywhere publicly. That's just how the whole
> > company operates. Doesn't have anything to do with VMS.
>
> That's hardly unusual. You don't promise anything until you are certain
> that you can deliver it!

On the other hand, they KNOW they CAN deliver the current version of
OpenVMS - and that's still hush-hush!

D.J.D.
Hein RMS van den Heuvel
2009-01-11 14:02:04 UTC
Permalink
On Jan 10, 5:27 pm, JF Mezei <***@vaxination.ca> wrote:

> Considering that Bootcamp is the only major VMS event left , and
> considering they will have a brand spanking new version of VMS,

Conceivably they could work more aggressively with HPTF (Vegas Tech
Forum) and present some solid OpenVMS value there for a change. Maybe
even a bootcamp like whole day, including the plenary time slot,
where typically no alternative is offered.

> I don't know how many people the event needs to break even.

That's a good question. Is was supposed to be mildly revenue
generating, if you do not have to count the engineering time too
precisely.
Because the remaining engineers are now much more dispersed then
before (the Nashua office is closed and many have no office in the
Marlboro) it becomes harder to 'steal' and hour here and there, or
expect them to join after hours in a common location. Integrating gack
into Connect/HPTF and using that location would make this even
harder.

> But if enough people show interest, and Sue can go to her superiors and show
> that despite the economic situation, she can get more people than
> necessary to break even, perhaps HP will reconsider.

I doubt it, but it should be tried.
You have hit on the biggest issue I have with Ann's Email.
Maybe I missed an attendance poll, but it certainly seems to me that
'Ann' (HP) decided for us that it is all gloom and doom out there. How
about letting us be the judge of that. HP can speak for itself, but
not for me!
Maybe the gloom and doom translates to several companies nixing
grandiose world-hunger-solving SOA plans and stretching OpenVMS
solutions longer than originally planned and may that even come with
(minor) new sales (itanium)?

> I would urge everyone whose employer would be willing to fund going to
> the bootcamp this year to get in touch with Sue to let her know. The
> more people do it, the more chances of bootcamp happening.

Yes, some letter of intend or something like that.


> If Bootcamp is self funding/revenu neutral, and if HP has every
> intention to continue to develop VMS, then it has no reason to not hold
> the event.

Well, you need engineers.
Those had been hit over the years, and last week was an other black
week.
Many casualties. Not much left!

But even if several potential bootcamp contributors have been let go
(recently) , then I'd like to think that many (all?!) of those would
be ready to step up to one more show!
It has already happened. Myself, Guy P, Steve L, all ex-OpenVMS
Engineers have presented at the bootcamp 'on their own nickle' for
'the greater good of OpenVMS' as well as (of course) the potential to
drum up business over time.
Recent ex-engineers may well be interested in an opportunity to
network in the hope of scoring a good new job. Bruce E, and Norman L
all come at no cost to HP showing of their skills, companies and
products without turning it into a marketing event. In an other reply
Guy already indicates he and Cmos are ready to come again. Yes they
would mention how Maklee can help you if need be, but you can learn
from their presentations and hallway conversations.

> Does HP really want more "HP is killing VMS" debates to start at this point in time ?

That large HP company does not care. Some fractions do.

> If all else fails, perhaps Sue could organise a pub crawl after hours
> that would bring customers and engineers together to discuss kernel
> issues over a Guiness or two ?

Travel is hard to justify for pub-crawl.
Maybe a 'working breakfast' where most come the night before and
happen to meet up? :-)
A scaled back (2 day) event with social time should be feasible I
would like to think.

Indications from my first two assignments this year suggest that
flights may be priced reasonably (MHT - STL roundtrip was $300) and
hotels may well come down some, or at least not go up further.

[ I already intend(ed) to send an Email roughly with the above (but
not in the "reply to" style) to Ann M, but figured I'd feel the
waters here first. ]

Cheers,
Hein.
Main, Kerry
2009-01-10 17:55:25 UTC
Permalink
> -----Original Message-----
> From: info-vax-***@rbnsn.com [mailto:info-vax-***@rbnsn.com] On
> Behalf Of DaveG
> Sent: January 8, 2009 10:01 AM
> To: info-***@rbnsn.com
> Subject: Re: [Info-vax] 2009 VMS Bootcamp notice
>
> On Jan 7, 5:53 pm, JF Mezei <***@vaxination.ca> wrote:
> > Asking a question here, not trying to pass judgement.
> >
> > What is the feeling about cancellation of the bootcamp ? Is this
> purely
> > because they feel not enough people would show up due to economic
> > circumstances ?
>
> I wonder about the cancellation in terms of predicted attendance and/
> or economic conditions. AFAIK, they filled the house for all past
> bootcamps. Without starting the registration process (which I assume
> wasn't) how could they possibly know that not enough people would
> show? I suspect there are other things going on here. Just my
> opinion, FWIW. Probably not much.
>

Fwiw, its not just HP cancelling marketing events.

Check out:(Jan 09, 2009)
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/01/09/canceled_it_shows/
" Update Sun Microsystems has scrapped its industry analyst conference
held annually in San Francisco, California. It was scheduled for February."

"Novell last month said it was cancelling its annual BrainShare, scheduled
for March in Salt Lake City, Utah, saying customers and partners are under
pressure to cut their costs."


Regards

Kerry Main
Senior Consultant
HP Services Canada
Voice: 613-254-8911
Fax: 613-591-4477
kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom
(remove the DOT's and AT)

OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.
Main, Kerry
2009-01-10 17:55:25 UTC
Permalink
> -----Original Message-----
> From: info-vax-***@rbnsn.com [mailto:info-vax-***@rbnsn.com] On
> Behalf Of DaveG
> Sent: January 8, 2009 10:01 AM
> To: info-***@rbnsn.com
> Subject: Re: [Info-vax] 2009 VMS Bootcamp notice
>
> On Jan 7, 5:53 pm, JF Mezei <***@vaxination.ca> wrote:
> > Asking a question here, not trying to pass judgement.
> >
> > What is the feeling about cancellation of the bootcamp ? Is this
> purely
> > because they feel not enough people would show up due to economic
> > circumstances ?
>
> I wonder about the cancellation in terms of predicted attendance and/
> or economic conditions. AFAIK, they filled the house for all past
> bootcamps. Without starting the registration process (which I assume
> wasn't) how could they possibly know that not enough people would
> show? I suspect there are other things going on here. Just my
> opinion, FWIW. Probably not much.
>

Fwiw, its not just HP cancelling marketing events.

Check out:(Jan 09, 2009)
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/01/09/canceled_it_shows/
" Update Sun Microsystems has scrapped its industry analyst conference
held annually in San Francisco, California. It was scheduled for February."

"Novell last month said it was cancelling its annual BrainShare, scheduled
for March in Salt Lake City, Utah, saying customers and partners are under
pressure to cut their costs."


Regards

Kerry Main
Senior Consultant
HP Services Canada
Voice: 613-254-8911
Fax: 613-591-4477
kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom
(remove the DOT's and AT)

OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.
David J Dachtera
2009-01-11 06:00:57 UTC
Permalink
"Main, Kerry" wrote:
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: info-vax-***@rbnsn.com [mailto:info-vax-***@rbnsn.com] On
> > Behalf Of DaveG
> > Sent: January 8, 2009 10:01 AM
> > To: info-***@rbnsn.com
> > Subject: Re: [Info-vax] 2009 VMS Bootcamp notice
> >
> > On Jan 7, 5:53 pm, JF Mezei <***@vaxination.ca> wrote:
> > > Asking a question here, not trying to pass judgement.
> > >
> > > What is the feeling about cancellation of the bootcamp ? Is this
> > purely
> > > because they feel not enough people would show up due to economic
> > > circumstances ?
> >
> > I wonder about the cancellation in terms of predicted attendance and/
> > or economic conditions. AFAIK, they filled the house for all past
> > bootcamps. Without starting the registration process (which I assume
> > wasn't) how could they possibly know that not enough people would
> > show? I suspect there are other things going on here. Just my
> > opinion, FWIW. Probably not much.
> >
>
> Fwiw, its not just HP cancelling marketing events.
>
> Check out:(Jan 09, 2009)
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/01/09/canceled_it_shows/
> " Update Sun Microsystems has scrapped its industry analyst conference
> held annually in San Francisco, California. It was scheduled for February."
>
> "Novell last month said it was cancelling its annual BrainShare, scheduled
> for March in Salt Lake City, Utah, saying customers and partners are under
> pressure to cut their costs."

On the other hand, Sun is in deep financial doo-doo, and Novell is all
but a memory - even more so than VMS.

D.J.D.
m***@gmail.com
2009-01-11 09:36:46 UTC
Permalink
On Jan 11, 8:00 am, David J Dachtera <***@spam.comcast.net>
wrote:
> "Main, Kerry" wrote:
>
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: info-vax-***@rbnsn.com [mailto:info-vax-***@rbnsn.com] On
> > > Behalf Of DaveG
> > > Sent: January 8, 2009 10:01 AM
> > > To: info-***@rbnsn.com
> > > Subject: Re: [Info-vax] 2009 VMS Bootcamp notice
>
> > > On Jan 7, 5:53 pm, JF Mezei <***@vaxination.ca> wrote:
> > > > Asking a question here, not trying to pass judgement.
>
> > > > What is the feeling about cancellation of the bootcamp ? Is this
> > > purely
> > > > because they feel not enough people would show up due to economic
> > > > circumstances ?
>
> > > I wonder about the cancellation in terms of predicted attendance and/
> > > or economic conditions.  AFAIK, they filled the house for all past
> > > bootcamps.  Without starting the registration process (which I assume
> > > wasn't) how could they possibly know that not enough people would
> > > show?  I suspect there are other things going on here.  Just my
> > > opinion, FWIW.  Probably not much.
>
> > Fwiw, its not just HP cancelling marketing events.
>
> > Check out:(Jan 09, 2009)
> >http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/01/09/canceled_it_shows/
> > " Update Sun Microsystems has scrapped its industry analyst conference
> > held annually in San Francisco, California. It was scheduled for February."
>
> > "Novell last month said it was cancelling its annual BrainShare, scheduled
> > for March in Salt Lake City, Utah, saying customers and partners are under
> > pressure to cut their costs."
>
> On the other hand, Sun is in deep financial doo-doo, and Novell is all
> but a memory - even more so than VMS.
>
> D.J.D.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Following up on David's idea --

Christian Moser and myself would be very happy to come and talk
at any local event that would bring at least 30 people together. This
is not an attempt to replace the bootcamp of course, but it's better
than nothing.

Guy
Christopher
2009-01-12 15:00:56 UTC
Permalink
On Jan 7, 6:53 pm, JF Mezei <***@vaxination.ca> wrote:
> Asking a question here, not trying to pass judgement.
>
> What is the feeling about cancellation of the bootcamp ? Is this purely
> because they feel not enough people would show up due to economic
> circumstances ?
>

I am an HP employee. Due to the "economic situation" HP cancelled
pretty much ALL non-sales related travel, and pretty much all non-
revenue-generating events.
DaveG
2009-01-12 15:09:46 UTC
Permalink
On Jan 12, 9:00 am, Christopher <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jan 7, 6:53 pm, JF Mezei <***@vaxination.ca> wrote:
>
> > Asking a question here, not trying to pass judgement.
>
> > What is the feeling about cancellation of the bootcamp ? Is this purely
> > because they feel not enough people would show up due to economic
> > circumstances ?
>
> I am an HP employee.  Due to the "economic situation" HP cancelled
> pretty much ALL non-sales related travel, and pretty much all non-
> revenue-generating events.

I heard the same thing from an OpenVMS Ambassador at a LUG (now
chapter) steering committee meeting in Chicagoland last week. ALL =
not just OpenVMS, but ALL.
e***@yahoo.co.uk
2009-01-12 17:22:31 UTC
Permalink
On 12 Jan, 15:09, DaveG <***@abbott.com> wrote:
> On Jan 12, 9:00 am, Christopher <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jan 7, 6:53 pm, JF Mezei <***@vaxination.ca> wrote:
>
> > > Asking a question here, not trying to pass judgement.
>
> > > What is the feeling about cancellation of the bootcamp ? Is this purely
> > > because they feel not enough people would show up due to economic
> > > circumstances ?
>
> > I am an HP employee.  Due to the "economic situation" HP cancelled
> > pretty much ALL non-sales related travel, and pretty much all non-
> > revenue-generating events.
>
> I heard the same thing from an OpenVMS Ambassador at a LUG (now
> chapter) steering committee meeting in Chicagoland last week.  ALL =
> not just OpenVMS, but ALL.

This is pretty much what I'd guessed from piecing together a few bits
that I'd heard.
My expectation is that the BootCamp, whilst great for installed base
marketing and great for spreading the word technically, would be
pretty expensive for HP in terms of manhours and dollars. When you're
running just to keep still, things like this are bound to be cut.
Keeping the staff in jobs when you've had to raise all of your prices
just to keep the wolf from the door can be more important than running
the BootCamp.
I'm sure Sue and her colleagues would rather that the BootCamp be
canned for 2009 than have to make cuts elsewhere?
JF Mezei
2009-01-12 20:00:13 UTC
Permalink
***@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

> I'm sure Sue and her colleagues would rather that the BootCamp be
> canned for 2009 than have to make cuts elsewhere?

Didn't you read the message from Hein a day or two ago ? Cuts are being
made elsewhere in VMS. I suspect the true extent of the cuts being made
to VMS are not going to be announced by HP.

Bootcamp was not costing HP money. (in terms of cash). And employees
that were based in new england didn't have to fly halfway around the
world to meet customers beause Bootcamp was held next door to their offices.


If you were HP, would you agree to host a training/marketing event where
you need to ask ex-employees to make presentations on the new features
you are just releasing ?

The only way Bootcamp can work in 2009 is if it is run by a separate
organisation who can then run an event with freedom to source speakers
from ex employees and whatever remains of HP employees assigned to VMS.
William Webb
2009-01-13 01:21:04 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 3:00 PM, JF Mezei <***@vaxination.ca>wrote:

> ***@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>
> > I'm sure Sue and her colleagues would rather that the BootCamp be
> > canned for 2009 than have to make cuts elsewhere?
>
> Didn't you read the message from Hein a day or two ago ? Cuts are being
> made elsewhere in VMS. I suspect the true extent of the cuts being made
> to VMS are not going to be announced by HP.
>
> Bootcamp was not costing HP money. (in terms of cash). And employees
> that were based in new england didn't have to fly halfway around the
> world to meet customers beause Bootcamp was held next door to their
> offices.
>
>
> If you were HP, would you agree to host a training/marketing event where
> you need to ask ex-employees to make presentations on the new features
> you are just releasing ?
>
> The only way Bootcamp can work in 2009 is if it is run by a separate
> organisation who can then run an event with freedom to source speakers
> from ex employees and whatever remains of HP employees assigned to VMS.
> _______________________________________________
> Info-vax mailing list
> Info-***@rbnsn.com
> http://rbnsn.com/mailman/listinfo/info-vax_rbnsn.com
>


One place you could make your feelings known is on Nina Buik's blog:

http://hpusercommunity.org/blog_post_view.aspx?BlogPostID=4edaf2f3487b410c93b0572026d8afef

WWWebb
e***@yahoo.co.uk
2009-01-13 09:40:26 UTC
Permalink
On 12 Jan, 20:00, JF Mezei <***@vaxination.ca> wrote:
> ***@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> > I'm sure Sue and her colleagues would rather that the BootCamp be
> > canned for 2009 than have to make cuts elsewhere?
>
> Didn't you read the message from Hein a day or two ago ? Cuts are being
> made elsewhere in VMS. I suspect the true extent of the cuts being made
> to VMS are not going to be announced by HP.
>
> Bootcamp was not costing HP money. (in terms of cash). And employees
> that were based in new england didn't have to fly halfway around the
> world to meet customers beause Bootcamp was held next door to their offices.
>

So you have systems given up to Bootcamp stuff and time that employees
should be spending on writing code writing presentations instead and
people out of the office when they should be on VMS Engineering work.
So what part of this doesn't cost HP?
Hotels and demos don't cost zero dollars. Office space doesn't cost
zero dollars. It all costs money.
JF Mezei
2009-01-13 14:43:48 UTC
Permalink
***@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

> So you have systems given up to Bootcamp stuff and time that employees
> should be spending on writing code writing presentations instead and
> people out of the office when they should be on VMS Engineering work.
> So what part of this doesn't cost HP?

I don't know what sort of budget philosophy HP has. But if the VMS group
holds an event which is cash neutral (thus no need for an HP approved
budget), and uses only staff from within its own ranks (so no man hours
to "buy" from another department), then does it really bother HP if a
department holds an event like Bootcamp or not ?

Many engineers live closer to the hotel than to the HP offices. It
isn't as if HP needs to send all VMS engineers 7063nm around the world
to new england, is it ???????

> http://gc.kls2.com/cgi-bin/gc?PATH=blr-nh41%0D%0A&RANGE=&PATH-COLOR=red&PATH-UNITS=nm&PATH-MINIMUM=&SPEED-GROUND=&SPEED-UNITS=kts&RANGE-STYLE=best&RANGE-COLOR=navy&MAP-STYLE=


The succesive owners ensured VMS remained an obscure, unmarketed niche
product. As a result, the customers who end up paying the big bucks,
expect to have greater contact with the vendor, and the
engineers/product managers need to have contact with the small customer
base to know what they need.


DECUS was the perfect vehicle for this communications in its heydays.
Post DECUS, Sue filled a huge hole when she found a way to get Bootcamp
running without any financial help from HP.


When Apple announced it was pulling out of macworld, it mentioned that
it would now leverage the orders of magnitudes more visitors at its
stores, and that it could use the web to make more timely product
annoucements.

If the HP memo about Bootcamp cancellation had mentioned that HP would
be focusing on web-based keynote speeches about VMS and other ways to
keep in touch with the customer base then one would have seen just an
updated way to achieve the same goal. But HP is now cutting the last
remaining link, and it was a damned good one that costed HP next to nothing.

If HP used its contacts with customers to decide on future enhancements
for VMS, what does the end of customer contacts really mean with regards
to long term development plans ?
Richard B. Gilbert
2009-01-13 14:53:55 UTC
Permalink
JF Mezei wrote:
> ***@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>
>> So you have systems given up to Bootcamp stuff and time that employees
>> should be spending on writing code writing presentations instead and
>> people out of the office when they should be on VMS Engineering work.
>> So what part of this doesn't cost HP?
>
> I don't know what sort of budget philosophy HP has. But if the VMS group
> holds an event which is cash neutral (thus no need for an HP approved
> budget), and uses only staff from within its own ranks (so no man hours
> to "buy" from another department), then does it really bother HP if a
> department holds an event like Bootcamp or not ?
>
> Many engineers live closer to the hotel than to the HP offices. It
> isn't as if HP needs to send all VMS engineers 7063nm around the world
> to new england, is it ???????
>
>> http://gc.kls2.com/cgi-bin/gc?PATH=blr-nh41%0D%0A&RANGE=&PATH-COLOR=red&PATH-UNITS=nm&PATH-MINIMUM=&SPEED-GROUND=&SPEED-UNITS=kts&RANGE-STYLE=best&RANGE-COLOR=navy&MAP-STYLE=
>
>
> The succesive owners ensured VMS remained an obscure, unmarketed niche
> product. As a result, the customers who end up paying the big bucks,
> expect to have greater contact with the vendor, and the
> engineers/product managers need to have contact with the small customer
> base to know what they need.
>
>
> DECUS was the perfect vehicle for this communications in its heydays.
> Post DECUS, Sue filled a huge hole when she found a way to get Bootcamp
> running without any financial help from HP.
>
>
> When Apple announced it was pulling out of macworld, it mentioned that
> it would now leverage the orders of magnitudes more visitors at its
> stores, and that it could use the web to make more timely product
> annoucements.
>
> If the HP memo about Bootcamp cancellation had mentioned that HP would
> be focusing on web-based keynote speeches about VMS and other ways to
> keep in touch with the customer base then one would have seen just an
> updated way to achieve the same goal. But HP is now cutting the last
> remaining link, and it was a damned good one that costed HP next to nothing.
>
> If HP used its contacts with customers to decide on future enhancements
> for VMS, what does the end of customer contacts really mean with regards
> to long term development plans ?

So learn Unix. It's not VMS, and never will be, but Unix people will be
in demand long after VMS is laid to rest!
Main, Kerry
2009-01-13 15:17:37 UTC
Permalink
-----Original Message-----
From: info-vax-***@rbnsn.com [mailto:info-vax-***@rbnsn.com] On Behalf Of JF Mezei
Sent: January 13, 2009 9:44 AM
To: info-***@rbnsn.com
Subject: Re: [Info-vax] 2009 VMS Bootcamp notice

As previously stated by some else here, the cancellation was part of a
higher up cost saving decision that impacts all groups in HP.


Regards

Kerry Main
Senior Consultant
HP Services Canada
Voice: 613-254-8911
Fax: 613-591-4477
kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom
(remove the DOT's and AT)

OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.
k***@spock.koehler.athome.net
2009-01-21 20:19:54 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <***@comcast.net> writes:
>
> So learn Unix. It's not VMS, and never will be, but Unix people will be
> in demand long after VMS is laid to rest!

UNIX people will be in demand after VMS people only because VMS will
just keep quietly running along with no attention.
Bill Gunshannon
2009-01-22 18:06:39 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@spock.koehler.athome.net>,
***@spock.koehler.athome.net writes:
> In article <***@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <***@comcast.net> writes:
>>
>> So learn Unix. It's not VMS, and never will be, but Unix people will be
>> in demand long after VMS is laid to rest!
>
> UNIX people will be in demand after VMS people only because VMS will
> just keep quietly running along with no attention.

God, when will this myth finally end. I have a Unix box here that has seen
no attention since it was installed in July of 2004 other than continuing to
add new user accounts every semester.

bill

--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
***@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
Johnny Billquist
2009-01-22 22:55:36 UTC
Permalink
Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> In article <***@spock.koehler.athome.net>,
> ***@spock.koehler.athome.net writes:
>> In article <***@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <***@comcast.net> writes:
>>> So learn Unix. It's not VMS, and never will be, but Unix people will be
>>> in demand long after VMS is laid to rest!
>> UNIX people will be in demand after VMS people only because VMS will
>> just keep quietly running along with no attention.
>
> God, when will this myth finally end. I have a Unix box here that has seen
> no attention since it was installed in July of 2004 other than continuing to
> add new user accounts every semester.

Really? That should be a very insecure system in that case.
I don't know of a single version of Unix (not even OpenBSD) which
haven't had atleast some CERT alerts serious enough to require upgrades
and serious checkups.

Not that I'm claiming any superiority of VMS, but the unbiased Unix
praise sometimes can go a bit too far.

Johnny

--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: ***@softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
Bill Gunshannon
2009-01-23 01:14:38 UTC
Permalink
In article <glatl6$4e9$***@tempo.update.uu.se>,
Johnny Billquist <***@softjar.se> writes:
> Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>> In article <***@spock.koehler.athome.net>,
>> ***@spock.koehler.athome.net writes:
>>> In article <***@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <***@comcast.net> writes:
>>>> So learn Unix. It's not VMS, and never will be, but Unix people will be
>>>> in demand long after VMS is laid to rest!
>>> UNIX people will be in demand after VMS people only because VMS will
>>> just keep quietly running along with no attention.
>>
>> God, when will this myth finally end. I have a Unix box here that has seen
>> no attention since it was installed in July of 2004 other than continuing to
>> add new user accounts every semester.
>
> Really? That should be a very insecure system in that case.
> I don't know of a single version of Unix (not even OpenBSD) which
> haven't had atleast some CERT alerts serious enough to require upgrades
> and serious checkups.
>
> Not that I'm claiming any superiority of VMS, but the unbiased Unix
> praise sometimes can go a bit too far.

I have never claimed Unix is invulnerable. That is the ballywick of
the VMS fanatics. But, I do get tired of hearing how VMS is the
only secure OS in the world when I have dozens of machines running
Unix and (horror of horrors) Windows and while we get attacked
constantly they don't succeed. It is possible to run a secure
operation with OSes other than VMS and it is long past time for
people here to accept that.

Of course, they won't so everyone else will just laugh up their
sleeves and let them continue in their delusion.

bill


--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
***@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
Johnny Billquist
2009-01-23 09:34:02 UTC
Permalink
Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> In article <glatl6$4e9$***@tempo.update.uu.se>,
> Johnny Billquist <***@softjar.se> writes:
>> Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>> In article <***@spock.koehler.athome.net>,
>>> ***@spock.koehler.athome.net writes:
>>>> In article <***@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <***@comcast.net> writes:
>>>>> So learn Unix. It's not VMS, and never will be, but Unix people will be
>>>>> in demand long after VMS is laid to rest!
>>>> UNIX people will be in demand after VMS people only because VMS will
>>>> just keep quietly running along with no attention.
>>> God, when will this myth finally end. I have a Unix box here that has seen
>>> no attention since it was installed in July of 2004 other than continuing to
>>> add new user accounts every semester.
>> Really? That should be a very insecure system in that case.
>> I don't know of a single version of Unix (not even OpenBSD) which
>> haven't had atleast some CERT alerts serious enough to require upgrades
>> and serious checkups.
>>
>> Not that I'm claiming any superiority of VMS, but the unbiased Unix
>> praise sometimes can go a bit too far.
>
> I have never claimed Unix is invulnerable. That is the ballywick of
> the VMS fanatics.

But you did claim that you have a Unix system which you haven't since
you installed it in July 2004 (except for adding users). And I question
if that is a good thing. Since those systems actually do need attention
(as do VMS).

Johnny

--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: ***@softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
Bill Gunshannon
2009-01-23 13:32:00 UTC
Permalink
In article <glc32k$ca0$***@tempo.update.uu.se>,
Johnny Billquist <***@softjar.se> writes:
> Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>> In article <glatl6$4e9$***@tempo.update.uu.se>,
>> Johnny Billquist <***@softjar.se> writes:
>>> Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>>> In article <***@spock.koehler.athome.net>,
>>>> ***@spock.koehler.athome.net writes:
>>>>> In article <***@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <***@comcast.net> writes:
>>>>>> So learn Unix. It's not VMS, and never will be, but Unix people will be
>>>>>> in demand long after VMS is laid to rest!
>>>>> UNIX people will be in demand after VMS people only because VMS will
>>>>> just keep quietly running along with no attention.
>>>> God, when will this myth finally end. I have a Unix box here that has seen
>>>> no attention since it was installed in July of 2004 other than continuing to
>>>> add new user accounts every semester.
>>> Really? That should be a very insecure system in that case.
>>> I don't know of a single version of Unix (not even OpenBSD) which
>>> haven't had atleast some CERT alerts serious enough to require upgrades
>>> and serious checkups.
>>>
>>> Not that I'm claiming any superiority of VMS, but the unbiased Unix
>>> praise sometimes can go a bit too far.
>>
>> I have never claimed Unix is invulnerable. That is the ballywick of
>> the VMS fanatics.
>
> But you did claim that you have a Unix system which you haven't since
> you installed it in July 2004 (except for adding users).

Which merely matched the VMS claim of 5.x years without being touched
that was coupled with the claim you can't do that with Unix.

> And I question
> if that is a good thing.

Experience seems to prove it isn't a bad thing. If your not running things
with holes in them you don't have to fix those things.

> Since those systems actually do need attention
> (as do VMS).

The attention needed depends on what the machine is doing and what
attention one feels is necessary. The box in question has one task
to perform, a major one in my infrastructure, but one task just the
same. It is just fine at it's current level of OS and needed software
for that task. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. How many times have
we been regaled with stories of machines still running VMS 5.5? Unix
is no different.

bill

--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
***@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
Johnny Billquist
2009-01-25 12:50:12 UTC
Permalink
Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> In article <glc32k$ca0$***@tempo.update.uu.se>,
> Johnny Billquist <***@softjar.se> writes:
>> Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>> In article <glatl6$4e9$***@tempo.update.uu.se>,
>>> Johnny Billquist <***@softjar.se> writes:
>>>> Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>>>> In article <***@spock.koehler.athome.net>,
>>>>> ***@spock.koehler.athome.net writes:
>>>>>> In article <***@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <***@comcast.net> writes:
>>>>>>> So learn Unix. It's not VMS, and never will be, but Unix people will be
>>>>>>> in demand long after VMS is laid to rest!
>>>>>> UNIX people will be in demand after VMS people only because VMS will
>>>>>> just keep quietly running along with no attention.
>>>>> God, when will this myth finally end. I have a Unix box here that has seen
>>>>> no attention since it was installed in July of 2004 other than continuing to
>>>>> add new user accounts every semester.
>>>> Really? That should be a very insecure system in that case.
>>>> I don't know of a single version of Unix (not even OpenBSD) which
>>>> haven't had atleast some CERT alerts serious enough to require upgrades
>>>> and serious checkups.
>>>>
>>>> Not that I'm claiming any superiority of VMS, but the unbiased Unix
>>>> praise sometimes can go a bit too far.
>>> I have never claimed Unix is invulnerable. That is the ballywick of
>>> the VMS fanatics.
>> But you did claim that you have a Unix system which you haven't since
>> you installed it in July 2004 (except for adding users).
>
> Which merely matched the VMS claim of 5.x years without being touched
> that was coupled with the claim you can't do that with Unix.
>
>> And I question
>> if that is a good thing.
>
> Experience seems to prove it isn't a bad thing. If your not running things
> with holes in them you don't have to fix those things.

So, which variant of Unix is it, so that I can give you n (incomplete
but long) list of known problems? :-)

>> Since those systems actually do need attention
>> (as do VMS).
>
> The attention needed depends on what the machine is doing and what
> attention one feels is necessary. The box in question has one task
> to perform, a major one in my infrastructure, but one task just the
> same. It is just fine at it's current level of OS and needed software
> for that task. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. How many times have
> we been regaled with stories of machines still running VMS 5.5? Unix
> is no different.

Unix *is* different. Trying to claim it's the same is silly, and you
know it.
However, it is just as silly to claim that VMS is the best thing since
sliced bread. And once VMS started using C, it basically got down on the
same level as Unix anyway.
The biggest issue I have with Unix, with regards to security, comes from
the problems in C. And the biggest problem there are buffer overflows,
which are notorious for turning up everywhere, and is pretty deeply
embedded within the whole language philosophy. Heck, until a few years
ago, you didn't even have a bunch of functions that are absolutely
required to even have a chance at making it safe. And most code still
don't use those functions. :-( (Think sprintf, for instance.)

Johnny

--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: ***@softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
j***@yahoo.co.uk
2009-01-23 10:11:51 UTC
Permalink
On Jan 23, 1:14 am, ***@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
> In article <glatl6$***@tempo.update.uu.se>,
>         Johnny Billquist <***@softjar.se> writes:
>
>
>
> > Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> >> In article <***@spock.koehler.athome.net>,
> >>        ***@spock.koehler.athome.net writes:
> >>> In article <***@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <***@comcast.net> writes:
> >>>> So learn Unix.  It's not VMS, and never will be, but Unix people will be
> >>>> in demand long after VMS is laid to rest!
> >>>   UNIX people will be in demand after VMS people only because VMS will
> >>>   just keep quietly running along with no attention.
>
> >> God, when will this myth finally end.  I have a Unix box here that has seen
> >> no attention since it was installed in July of 2004 other than continuing to
> >> add new user accounts every semester.
>
> > Really? That should be a very insecure system in that case.
> > I don't know of a single version of Unix (not even OpenBSD) which
> > haven't had atleast some CERT alerts serious enough to require upgrades
> > and serious checkups.
>
> > Not that I'm claiming any superiority of VMS, but the unbiased Unix
> > praise sometimes can go a bit too far.
>
> I have never claimed Unix is invulnerable.  That is the ballywick of
> the VMS fanatics.  But, I do get tired of hearing how VMS is the
> only secure OS in the world when I have dozens of machines running
> Unix and (horror of horrors) Windows and while we get attacked
> constantly they don't succeed.  It is possible to run a secure
> operation with OSes other than VMS and it is long past time for
> people here to accept that.
>
> Of course, they won't so everyone else will just laugh up their
> sleeves and let them continue in their delusion.
>
> bill
>
> --
> Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
> ***@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
> University of Scranton   |
> Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>  

What is possible in an ideal world is not always the same as what is
commonly seen in the real world. It is common for Windows systems to
be exploited, surely you couldn't disagree with that. Partly that is
because Windows boxes are defective by design (especially a Windows
system fresh from a Windows CD, as you have already acknowledged).
Partly that is because of the level of competence and experience and
motivation of the typical Windows-centric IT department (or home
user). Your experience seems to be very different from that of many
people in the Windows world, be they home users, corporates, or
whatever.

If the users/managers in general can't be educated to use the tool
safely, and years of experience definitely shows us that is the case,
maybe it's time to choose a safer more appropriate tool? Of course in
the Windows case, a whole ecosystem exists whose finances and careers
are dependent on continued inappropriate use of the "defective by
design" tool, which makes widespread change quite tricky, because the
technical discussion disappears in a sea of self-preservation: "the
tool may be initially unsafe, but just add blade guards X and Y and Z,
just upgrade it every three years, just (re)train the users, just pay
us the maintenance, and it will get the job done just fine..."
Bill Gunshannon
2009-01-23 13:44:11 UTC
Permalink
In article <ab43de16-f8a4-4249-8274-***@s1g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
***@yahoo.co.uk writes:
> On Jan 23, 1:14 am, ***@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
>> In article <glatl6$***@tempo.update.uu.se>,
>>         Johnny Billquist <***@softjar.se> writes:
>>
>>
>>
>> > Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>> >> In article <***@spock.koehler.athome.net>,
>> >>        ***@spock.koehler.athome.net writes:
>> >>> In article <***@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <***@comcast.net> writes:
>> >>>> So learn Unix.  It's not VMS, and never will be, but Unix people will be
>> >>>> in demand long after VMS is laid to rest!
>> >>>   UNIX people will be in demand after VMS people only because VMS will
>> >>>   just keep quietly running along with no attention.
>>
>> >> God, when will this myth finally end.  I have a Unix box here that has seen
>> >> no attention since it was installed in July of 2004 other than continuing to
>> >> add new user accounts every semester.
>>
>> > Really? That should be a very insecure system in that case.
>> > I don't know of a single version of Unix (not even OpenBSD) which
>> > haven't had atleast some CERT alerts serious enough to require upgrades
>> > and serious checkups.
>>
>> > Not that I'm claiming any superiority of VMS, but the unbiased Unix
>> > praise sometimes can go a bit too far.
>>
>> I have never claimed Unix is invulnerable.  That is the ballywick of
>> the VMS fanatics.  But, I do get tired of hearing how VMS is the
>> only secure OS in the world when I have dozens of machines running
>> Unix and (horror of horrors) Windows and while we get attacked
>> constantly they don't succeed.  It is possible to run a secure
>> operation with OSes other than VMS and it is long past time for
>> people here to accept that.
>>
>> Of course, they won't so everyone else will just laugh up their
>> sleeves and let them continue in their delusion.
>>
>> bill
>>
>> --
>> Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
>> ***@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
>> University of Scranton   |
>> Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>  
> What is possible in an ideal world is not always the same as what is
> commonly seen in the real world. It is common for Windows systems to
> be exploited, surely you couldn't disagree with that. Partly that is
> because Windows boxes are defective by design (especially a Windows
> system fresh from a Windows CD, as you have already acknowledged).
> Partly that is because of the level of competence and experience and
> motivation of the typical Windows-centric IT department (or home
> user). Your experience seems to be very different from that of many
> people in the Windows world, be they home users, corporates, or
> whatever.

Well, I hardly consider myself a Windows expert. I don't even like
Windows. :-) Which begs the question: "If I can do it, why are the
supposed professionals having such a hard time?" My answer is really
quite simple. There are millions and millions of Windows boxes out
there. A hacked Windows box sells newspapers and magazines. A Windows
success story does not. We are being innundated now with stories of
"4.9 million" Windows boxes infected with a worm that MS published a
fix for months ago. So, who's fault is it that these machines are now
getting infected? Windows? MS? Or is it maybe closer to home. (Hint:
none of the machines under my control have been hit nor are they even
vulnerable. Go figure!)


> If the users/managers in general can't be educated to use the tool
> safely, and years of experience definitely shows us that is the case,
> maybe it's time to choose a safer more appropriate tool?

Well, every year we hear stories of people cutting off fingers with
various power tools, and yet, we still use them. Don't get me wrong,
I have been the strongest advocate around here for the abandonment
of MS infavor of OpenSource tools. My primary justification is the
cost. I have two employers. One is the University who can definitely
use the extra money they would have if they weren't paying for Bill
Gates to jetset around annoying people. The other is DOD. I don't
think I need to tell anyone what the governement is very likely paying
for the use of MS products or what it would do to the budget if that
line item were removed. But, at least for now, Windows is reality
and the answer is if you have to work with it you really need to learn
how to secure it rather than throwing your hands in the air and saying
"Oh well".

> Of course in
> the Windows case, a whole ecosystem exists whose finances and careers
> are dependent on continued inappropriate use of the "defective by
> design" tool, which makes widespread change quite tricky, because the
> technical discussion disappears in a sea of self-preservation: "the
> tool may be initially unsafe, but just add blade guards X and Y and Z,
> just upgrade it every three years, just (re)train the users, just pay
> us the maintenance, and it will get the job done just fine..."

All it really would take is for one or two major players to make the move
and make it very public, including the savings in both upfront costs and
maintenance. And, they would have to get the publicity, which may actually
be the hardest part.

bill

--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
***@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
jls
2009-01-23 17:51:26 UTC
Permalink
On 23 Jan 2009 13:44:11 GMT, ***@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)
wrote:

>
>Well, I hardly consider myself a Windows expert. I don't even like
>Windows. :-) Which begs the question: "If I can do it, why are the
>supposed professionals having such a hard time?"

No it does not 'beg the question'. This mis-use of the term 'begs the
question' has become a huge pet peeve of mine.

Unless you're strictly talking about the logic of an arguement, then
'begs the question' is being used incorrectly.

--------

jls
Bill Gunshannon
2009-01-23 18:02:47 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@4ax.com>,
jls <***@yahoo.com> writes:
> On 23 Jan 2009 13:44:11 GMT, ***@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)
> wrote:
>
>>
>>Well, I hardly consider myself a Windows expert. I don't even like
>>Windows. :-) Which begs the question: "If I can do it, why are the
>>supposed professionals having such a hard time?"
>
> No it does not 'beg the question'. This mis-use of the term 'begs the
> question' has become a huge pet peeve of mine.
>
> Unless you're strictly talking about the logic of an arguement, then
> 'begs the question' is being used incorrectly.

Another typical ploy here when you can't find a problem with the real
argument. I guess you couldn't find any words I spelled wrong.

In any case, It was used as regards the logic of the "If then Why"
(or in this case, Why not).

All of which is irrelevant and doesn't answer the real question.

bill

--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
***@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
jls
2009-01-23 17:54:11 UTC
Permalink
On 23 Jan 2009 13:44:11 GMT, ***@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)
wrote:

> There are millions and millions of Windows boxes out
>there. A hacked Windows box sells newspapers and magazines. A Windows
>success story does not. We are being innundated now with stories of
>"4.9 million" Windows boxes infected with a worm that MS published a
>fix for months ago. So, who's fault is it that these machines are now
>getting infected? Windows? MS? Or is it maybe closer to home. (Hint:
>none of the machines under my control have been hit nor are they even
>vulnerable. Go figure!)

Well, now you're changing the argument. At first you said that a
windows or unix system sitting there not being patched is just as
secure as a vms system in the same state of maintenace. This would
seem to contradict that notion, at least for Windows.

-------

jls
Bill Gunshannon
2009-01-23 18:06:54 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@4ax.com>,
jls <***@yahoo.com> writes:
> On 23 Jan 2009 13:44:11 GMT, ***@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)
> wrote:
>
>> There are millions and millions of Windows boxes out
>>there. A hacked Windows box sells newspapers and magazines. A Windows
>>success story does not. We are being innundated now with stories of
>>"4.9 million" Windows boxes infected with a worm that MS published a
>>fix for months ago. So, who's fault is it that these machines are now
>>getting infected? Windows? MS? Or is it maybe closer to home. (Hint:
>>none of the machines under my control have been hit nor are they even
>>vulnerable. Go figure!)
>
> Well, now you're changing the argument. At first you said that a
> windows or unix system sitting there not being patched is just as
> secure as a vms system in the same state of maintenace. This would
> seem to contradict that notion, at least for Windows.

The unattended system was strictly a Unix vs. VMS example. Someone said
they had a VMS machine that had not been touched in 5 years and you couldn't
do that with Unix. I merely posted a counter example where I have, in fact,
done that with Unix.

I never said that Windows could be left untouched. In fact, I was one
of the quickest to openly state that Windows, as shipped, is extremely
insecure and does need to be secured. And, that it is not as difficult
as people here say and it is well documented what has to be done. The
problem is not one of technical shortcomings or lack of knowledge, it
is one of apathy.

bill

--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
***@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
j***@yahoo.co.uk
2009-01-24 11:59:05 UTC
Permalink
On Jan 23, 1:44 pm, ***@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
> In article <ab43de16-f8a4-4249-8274-***@s1g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
>         ***@yahoo.co.uk writes:
>
>
>
> > On Jan 23, 1:14 am, ***@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
> >> In article <glatl6$***@tempo.update.uu.se>,
> >>         Johnny Billquist <***@softjar.se> writes:
>
> >> > Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> >> >> In article <***@spock.koehler.athome.net>,
> >> >>        ***@spock.koehler.athome.net writes:
> >> >>> In article <***@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <***@comcast.net> writes:
> >> >>>> So learn Unix.  It's not VMS, and never will be, but Unix people will be
> >> >>>> in demand long after VMS is laid to rest!
> >> >>>   UNIX people will be in demand after VMS people only because VMS will
> >> >>>   just keep quietly running along with no attention.
>
> >> >> God, when will this myth finally end.  I have a Unix box here that has seen
> >> >> no attention since it was installed in July of 2004 other than continuing to
> >> >> add new user accounts every semester.
>
> >> > Really? That should be a very insecure system in that case.
> >> > I don't know of a single version of Unix (not even OpenBSD) which
> >> > haven't had atleast some CERT alerts serious enough to require upgrades
> >> > and serious checkups.
>
> >> > Not that I'm claiming any superiority of VMS, but the unbiased Unix
> >> > praise sometimes can go a bit too far.
>
> >> I have never claimed Unix is invulnerable.  That is the ballywick of
> >> the VMS fanatics.  But, I do get tired of hearing how VMS is the
> >> only secure OS in the world when I have dozens of machines running
> >> Unix and (horror of horrors) Windows and while we get attacked
> >> constantly they don't succeed.  It is possible to run a secure
> >> operation with OSes other than VMS and it is long past time for
> >> people here to accept that.
>
> >> Of course, they won't so everyone else will just laugh up their
> >> sleeves and let them continue in their delusion.
>
> >> bill
>
> >> --
> >> Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
> >> ***@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
> >> University of Scranton   |
> >> Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>  
> > What is possible in an ideal world is not always the same as what is
> > commonly seen in the real world. It is common for Windows systems to
> > be exploited, surely you couldn't disagree with that. Partly that is
> > because Windows boxes are defective by design (especially a Windows
> > system fresh from a Windows CD, as you have already acknowledged).
> > Partly that is because of the level of competence and experience and
> > motivation of the typical Windows-centric IT department (or home
> > user). Your experience seems to be very different from that of many
> > people in the Windows world, be they home users, corporates, or
> > whatever.
>
> Well, I hardly consider myself a Windows expert.  I don't even like
> Windows. :-)  Which begs the question: "If I can do it, why are the
> supposed professionals having such a hard time?"  My answer is really
> quite simple.  There are millions and millions of Windows boxes out
> there.  A hacked Windows box sells newspapers and magazines.  A Windows
> success story does not.  We are being innundated now with stories of
> "4.9 million" Windows boxes infected with a worm that MS published a
> fix for months ago.  So, who's fault is it that these machines are now
> getting infected?  Windows? MS? Or is it maybe closer to home.  (Hint:
> none of the machines under my control have been hit nor are they even
> vulnerable.  Go figure!)
>
> > If the users/managers in general can't be educated to use the tool
> > safely, and years of experience definitely shows us that is the case,
> > maybe it's time to choose a safer more appropriate tool?
>
> Well, every year we hear stories of people cutting off fingers with
> various power tools, and yet, we still use them.  Don't get me wrong,
> I have been the strongest advocate around here for the abandonment
> of MS infavor of OpenSource tools.  My primary justification is the
> cost.  I have two employers.  One is the University who can definitely
> use the extra money they would have if they weren't paying for Bill
> Gates to jetset around annoying people.  The other is DOD.  I don't
> think I need to tell anyone what the governement is very likely paying
> for the use of MS products or what it would do to the budget if that
> line item were removed.  But, at least for now, Windows is reality
> and the answer is if you have to work with it you really need to learn
> how to secure it rather than throwing your hands in the air and saying
> "Oh well".
>
> >                                                           Of course in
> > the Windows case, a whole ecosystem exists whose finances and careers
> > are dependent on continued inappropriate use of the "defective by
> > design" tool, which makes widespread change quite tricky, because the
> > technical discussion disappears in a sea of self-preservation: "the
> > tool may be initially unsafe, but just add blade guards X and Y and Z,
> > just upgrade it every three years, just (re)train the users, just pay
> > us the maintenance, and it will get the job done just fine..."
>
> All it really would take is for one or two major players to make the move
> and make it very public, including the savings in both upfront costs and
> maintenance.  And, they would have to get the publicity, which may actually
> be the hardest part.
>
> bill
>
> --
> Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
> ***@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
> University of Scranton   |
> Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>  

How did we get this discussion going in two threads at once, one of
which (this Bootcamp one) would seem to have little to do with
Windows. That aside...

Do you pay much attention at to what happens in the general IT world
outside your own "professionally managed" environment? The environment
you describe (a poor choice of tool made to do a half decent job
because it has very special people and rigidly enforced processes
around it) is completely unrepresentative of the Windows world I've
experienced.

"All it would take ... one or two major players to make a move"

We're talking Microsoft here. To start with, pretty much every desktop
PC from a significant vendor includes the Windows tax, both in the
cost of the licence and the cost of engineering and (nominally)
supporting drivers for Windows.

If a major customer starts looking at thin client rather than Windows
PC, the desktop hardware vendor plays with PC prices to avoid losing
the ongoing desktop refresh contract. The Windows licence is a major
cost in a modern PC, and MS also want the recurring licence income
(the Windows Embedded in some thin clients is less $ than ordinary
desktop Windows), so there's backroom deals to be made there too.

If a major customer starts looking at alternatives to Windows, the
first thing that happens when the incumbent suppliers find out is that
the MS ecosystems start using their bank balances to prevent the
investigation let alone the move; licences at massive discounts,
consultancy at minimal or zero cost, promised annual rebates to
Purchasing depending on annual spend, marketing support from MS to the
suppliers at risk, all kinds of miracles happen which aren't available
to the plain ordinary loyal Microsoft customer. This isn't fantasy,
this is widely observed and occasionally reported ongoing anti-
competitive monopolist behaviour.

Elsewhere, do you remember what happened in Massachusetts when the
state government tried to say its agencies must start to use open
standards not MS-proprietary ones? [1] And that was just for Office,
not Windows? Do you remember why Sweden initially voted the way they
did in the OOXML standards vote? [Because Microsoft paid them to,
because the Office monopoly was at risk]. The list could go on and on
but I have other things to do.

With "business ethics" like that, what chance does a big MS customer
have of breaking the habit?

If you look at the small business market, where the corporate IT
managers and outsourcers and consultancies and even standards are less
relevant and these business practices don't help Microsoft to anything
like the same extent, but what works is a network of competent small
business IT experts supporting value-conscious small business IT
users, I see an increasing number of businesses adopting Linux rather
than Windows, both on servers (for a long time) and to an increasing
extent also on desktops. But they don't make headline news, and my
experience may not match other people's world.

[1] http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/07/03/massachusetts_adopts_microsoft_ooxml_standard/
JF Mezei
2009-01-24 13:03:08 UTC
Permalink
***@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

> With "business ethics" like that, what chance does a big MS customer
> have of breaking the habit?


How big of a customer would one have to be to get all the special
treatment from Microsoft ?

In fact, how big of a customer does one need to be to be allowed to deal
directly from Microsoft ?

And if you are allowed to buy directly from Microsoft, what does that do
to the MS tax that is already included in the hardware systems you are
buying ? Does this mean that you'd have a 3way between you, MS and the
hardware vendor and MS telling the vendor to not charge the MS tax on
the systems sold to you ?
j***@yahoo.co.uk
2009-01-24 19:20:39 UTC
Permalink
On Jan 24, 1:03 pm, JF Mezei <***@vaxination.ca> wrote:
> ***@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> > With "business ethics" like that, what chance does a big MS customer
> > have of breaking the habit?
>
> How big of a customer would one have to be to get all the special
> treatment from Microsoft ?
>
> In fact, how big of a customer does one need to be to be allowed to deal
> directly from Microsoft ?
>
> And if you are allowed to buy directly from Microsoft, what does that do
> to the MS tax that is already included in the hardware systems you are
> buying ? Does this mean that you'd have a 3way between you, MS and the
> hardware vendor and MS telling the vendor to not charge the MS tax on
> the systems sold to you ?

You have to be very big. You'll have a global account manager with
Dell, HP, or IBM for example. Your desktops are probably outsourced to
someone with a global account manager (or whatever their equivalent is
called) at Microsoft.

Wrt hardware tax on desktops: from my previous post, the money needed
to reduce the impact of the Wndows desktop licence on end user and
supplier changes hands via "marketing support from MS to the suppliers
at risk". Marketing support from MS themselves to MS resellers of
various flavours will itself be subject to various lock-ins from MS,
which is why every mainstream PC advert or website (manufacturer or
retailer) currently says "<vendor> recommends Windows Home
Premium" (or Vista Business or whatever) - commit to putting that on
your ad for the foreseaable future and MS pick up some proportion of
the cost - like the "Intel Inside" advertising deals of days gone by.
All of these tactics are perfectly legal and legitimate unless a
monopolist abuses them to (for example) produce "unreasonable barriers
to entry" into a particular market, which is a different subject for a
different discussion.
Johnny Billquist
2009-01-25 12:58:57 UTC
Permalink
Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> In article <ab43de16-f8a4-4249-8274-***@s1g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
> ***@yahoo.co.uk writes:
>> What is possible in an ideal world is not always the same as what is
>> commonly seen in the real world. It is common for Windows systems to
>> be exploited, surely you couldn't disagree with that. Partly that is
>> because Windows boxes are defective by design (especially a Windows
>> system fresh from a Windows CD, as you have already acknowledged).
>> Partly that is because of the level of competence and experience and
>> motivation of the typical Windows-centric IT department (or home
>> user). Your experience seems to be very different from that of many
>> people in the Windows world, be they home users, corporates, or
>> whatever.
>
> Well, I hardly consider myself a Windows expert. I don't even like
> Windows. :-) Which begs the question: "If I can do it, why are the
> supposed professionals having such a hard time?" My answer is really
> quite simple. There are millions and millions of Windows boxes out
> there. A hacked Windows box sells newspapers and magazines. A Windows
> success story does not. We are being innundated now with stories of
> "4.9 million" Windows boxes infected with a worm that MS published a
> fix for months ago. So, who's fault is it that these machines are now
> getting infected? Windows? MS? Or is it maybe closer to home. (Hint:
> none of the machines under my control have been hit nor are they even
> vulnerable. Go figure!)

Oh, come on. That's an argument I've heard a million times, and it just
don't hold water. That's basically the Microsoft excuse for the problems
they have - "hey, we don't have any more problems than anyone else, it's
just that our systems are so much more common, but proportionally they
are actually better".

They never give any numbers to back up that statement with, though. And
most people are *not* using MS IIS as their web servers (even if they
are using Windows), and yet the biggest number of security problems and
fixes are for IIS. OSes like Linux, *BSD and others are fully free, and
anyone can audit the code. And that is one reason you have a bunch of
security problems discovered there, and fixed. Windows do not have such
auditing, and yet the number of security problems reported are more
numerous. Granted, the number of systems out there are more, but the
number of bugs are not proportional to the number of systems you sell.
(Or atleast, they shouldn't be. I can't really speak for how MS works...)

So, it's basically bollocks. Windows have more security problems. And I
haven't even started on all the brilliant ideas that Microsoft gets,
such as automatically executing code in incoming mails just in case it
provides some nifty, fancy extra functionality which makes the user
experience more pleasant (forgetting that virus programmers just love
such features).

Johnny

--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: ***@softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
Michael Kraemer
2009-01-25 15:14:32 UTC
Permalink
Johnny Billquist schrieb:

> So, it's basically bollocks. Windows have more security problems. And I
> haven't even started on all the brilliant ideas that Microsoft gets,
> such as automatically executing code in incoming mails just in case it
> provides some nifty, fancy extra functionality which makes the user
> experience more pleasant (forgetting that virus programmers just love
> such features).

If windoze is so crappy, then why do we hear all the time
in this group
how happy people are running VMS emulators on top of it ?
I mean, the emulation can only be as good as the host
running beneath, no ?
And why are so many people here happy with windoze as
a surrogate for a native VMS desktop ?
(Some even complain about such desktop apps being published)
JF Mezei
2009-01-25 17:44:33 UTC
Permalink
Michael Kraemer wrote:

> If windoze is so crappy, then why do we hear all the time
> in this group
> how happy people are running VMS emulators on top of it ?
> I mean, the emulation can only be as good as the host
> running beneath, no ?
> And why are so many people here happy with windoze as
> a surrogate for a native VMS desktop ?
> (Some even complain about such desktop apps being published)


We love VMS. It is hard to lot go of a loved one. We all know it its
owners have inflicted it with a terminal disease and it has but one way
to go: down. But as with loved ones, we keep hoping a miracle will
happen and its owner will turn around and deside to allow VMS to succeed.

HP has officialy had VMS since may 7th 2002. (add a year for unofficial
onwership when carly was already in bed wth curly about wedding).

Scott "we expect VMS customers to migrate to HP-UX" Stallard is still
there, so is Ann Livermore. Nothing has changed since then. We may not
be willing to admit it, but deep down, we all know HP has no interest in
leveraging VMS and making it succesful. Lets face it, we are in denial
about VMS' lack of future.

It is easy to tell that HP is a hardware company. It values ink more
than it values the brains of software engineers who are some of the most
experienced in the industry, who have a strong philosophy of quality and
secure code. VMS engineers have developped technologies that are still
world leading and they should have been viewed as golden assets instead
of a cost centre.

Software companies greatly value their in-house engineering because they
know that this is their core asset. Software engineers define what the
company is capable of doing. And this is why software companies pamper
their core assets: software enginers.

HP sees software as a necessary evil, something that can be written by
commodity human resources that are interchangeable.

What happens to HP when people stop buying ink ? HP will have
cannabalised the rest of its business and will no longer have any of its
own assets. It will be just like Dell, slave to Microsoft and Intel.

Compare the company calling itselt "HP" today with the real Hewlett
Packard. The REAL HP innovated and was focused on R&D. It had high
quality instruments, medical istrumentations, high quality Mini
computers, high quality calculators et etc. There was one consistant
word associated with the real HP: QUALITY. This is no longer the case.
HP wants to be comodity, lowest common denominator and has no use for
innovative high quality stuff, unless it is related to ink.


The real HP is now called Agilent. The owners of VMS don't really seem
to care about high quality stuff. If they did, they would see the huge
value that VMS engineers bring to products.
Michael Kraemer
2009-01-25 21:09:31 UTC
Permalink
JF Mezei schrieb:
> Michael Kraemer wrote:
>
>
>>If windoze is so crappy, then why do we hear all the time
>>in this group
>>how happy people are running VMS emulators on top of it ?
>>I mean, the emulation can only be as good as the host
>>running beneath, no ?
>>And why are so many people here happy with windoze as
>>a surrogate for a native VMS desktop ?
>>(Some even complain about such desktop apps being published)
>
>
>
> We love VMS. It is hard to lot go of a loved one. We all know it its
> owners have inflicted it with a terminal disease and it has but one way
> to go: down. But as with loved ones, we keep hoping a miracle will
> happen and its owner will turn around and deside to allow VMS to succeed.
>
(snip)

Does not answer my question, which wasn't about HP mistreating VMS.
It was about the schizophrenic mindset
to bash Windoze on the one hand, and recommend Windoze-based VMS
over the real thing on the other.
Stanley F. Quayle
2009-01-25 21:28:07 UTC
Permalink
On 25 Jan 2009 at 22:09, Michael Kraemer wrote:
> Does not answer my question, which wasn't about HP mistreating VMS. It was
> about the schizophrenic mindset to bash Windoze on the one hand, and
> recommend Windoze-based VMS over the real thing on the other.

Well, I'd love to have a product that ran on Linux, but the only two OS's that CHARON-VAX
runs on are Windows and VMS on Itanium.

Schizophrenic? That's a Windows box running VMware that runs Windows that runs CHARON-
VAX running VMS. And, yes, I have one customer that's doing that. It's not only
unsupported, but pretty confusing at times...

[Shameless Plug Alert (tm) -- I am a CHARON reseller.]
--Stan Quayle
Quayle Consulting Inc.

----------
Stanley F. Quayle, P.E. N8SQ Toll free: 1-888-I-LUV-VAX
8572 North Spring Ct., Pickerington, OH 43147 USA
stan-at-stanq-dot-com http://www.stanq.com/charon-vax.html
"OpenVMS, when downtime is not an option"
Stanley F. Quayle
2009-01-25 21:28:07 UTC
Permalink
On 25 Jan 2009 at 22:09, Michael Kraemer wrote:
> Does not answer my question, which wasn't about HP mistreating VMS. It was
> about the schizophrenic mindset to bash Windoze on the one hand, and
> recommend Windoze-based VMS over the real thing on the other.

Well, I'd love to have a product that ran on Linux, but the only two OS's that CHARON-VAX
runs on are Windows and VMS on Itanium.

Schizophrenic? That's a Windows box running VMware that runs Windows that runs CHARON-
VAX running VMS. And, yes, I have one customer that's doing that. It's not only
unsupported, but pretty confusing at times...

[Shameless Plug Alert (tm) -- I am a CHARON reseller.]
--Stan Quayle
Quayle Consulting Inc.

----------
Stanley F. Quayle, P.E. N8SQ Toll free: 1-888-I-LUV-VAX
8572 North Spring Ct., Pickerington, OH 43147 USA
stan-at-stanq-dot-com http://www.stanq.com/charon-vax.html
"OpenVMS, when downtime is not an option"
Johnny Billquist
2009-01-26 08:23:22 UTC
Permalink
Michael Kraemer wrote:
> JF Mezei schrieb:
>> Michael Kraemer wrote:
>>
>>
>>> If windoze is so crappy, then why do we hear all the time
>>> in this group
>>> how happy people are running VMS emulators on top of it ?
>>> I mean, the emulation can only be as good as the host
>>> running beneath, no ?
>>> And why are so many people here happy with windoze as
>>> a surrogate for a native VMS desktop ?
>>> (Some even complain about such desktop apps being published)
>>
>>
>>
>> We love VMS. It is hard to lot go of a loved one. We all know it its
>> owners have inflicted it with a terminal disease and it has but one way
>> to go: down. But as with loved ones, we keep hoping a miracle will
>> happen and its owner will turn around and deside to allow VMS to succeed.
>>
> (snip)
>
> Does not answer my question, which wasn't about HP mistreating VMS.
> It was about the schizophrenic mindset
> to bash Windoze on the one hand, and recommend Windoze-based VMS
> over the real thing on the other.

Maybe not as schizophrenic as you might think at first glance. It's not
the same individuals advocating the two views. :-)

Me? I run some VMS occasionally. It's been a long time since I worked
with it professionally. (On the other hand, I still work with RSX
professionally). But I really stay away from Windows all the same.

Johnny

--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: ***@softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
William Webb
2009-02-12 01:55:39 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, Jan 25, 2009 at 10:14 AM, Michael Kraemer <***@gsi.de> wrote:
>
> Johnny Billquist schrieb:
>
>> So, it's basically bollocks. Windows have more security problems. And I haven't even started on all the brilliant ideas that Microsoft gets, such as automatically executing code in incoming mails just in case it provides some nifty, fancy extra functionality which makes the user experience more pleasant (forgetting that virus programmers just love such features).
>
> If windoze is so crappy, then why do we hear all the time
> in this group
> how happy people are running VMS emulators on top of it ?
> I mean, the emulation can only be as good as the host
> running beneath, no ?
> And why are so many people here happy with windoze as
> a surrogate for a native VMS desktop ?
> (Some even complain about such desktop apps being published)
>
> _______________________________________________
> Info-vax mailing list
> Info-***@rbnsn.com
> http://rbnsn.com/mailman/listinfo/info-vax_rbnsn.com

google groups search c.o.v. for the famous phrase

"Windows is remarkably stable if it is not used"

"Michael Unger" <***@decus.de> wrote in message

news:bmmj9m$nto2l$***@ID-152801.news.uni-berlin.de...

> On 2003-10-15 23:03, "Wilm Boerhout" wrote:

[...]

> "VMS on IA-32" isn't the problem, but "Charon-VAX on *Windows*" ...

As might have shown from an earlier message, CHARON-VAX uses Windows mainly
as program loader, and one can disable unused services. Windows is
remarkably stable if it is not used. We had our local demo system up for
over a year before it was time for a hardware upgrade.

CHARON-VAX/AXP on an OpenVMS/Alpha host is a good alternative. One can build
nice clusters on a Marvel as well.

Regards, Robert

WWWebb
Stanley F. Quayle
2009-02-12 15:31:08 UTC
Permalink
On 11 Feb 2009 at 20:55, William Webb wrote:
> CHARON-VAX/AXP on an OpenVMS/Alpha host is a good alternative. One can build
> nice clusters on a Marvel as well.

An Itanium Superdome would make a *great* CHARON-VAX platform. The CHARON products that
ran on Alpha were replaced with an Itanium version when the Alpha went end-of-life.

--Stan Quayle
Quayle Consulting Inc.

----------
Stanley F. Quayle, P.E. N8SQ Toll free: 1-888-I-LUV-VAX
8572 North Spring Ct., Pickerington, OH 43147 USA
stan-at-stanq-dot-com http://www.stanq.com/charon-vax.html
"OpenVMS, when downtime is not an option"
Stanley F. Quayle
2009-02-12 15:31:08 UTC
Permalink
On 11 Feb 2009 at 20:55, William Webb wrote:
> CHARON-VAX/AXP on an OpenVMS/Alpha host is a good alternative. One can build
> nice clusters on a Marvel as well.

An Itanium Superdome would make a *great* CHARON-VAX platform. The CHARON products that
ran on Alpha were replaced with an Itanium version when the Alpha went end-of-life.

--Stan Quayle
Quayle Consulting Inc.

----------
Stanley F. Quayle, P.E. N8SQ Toll free: 1-888-I-LUV-VAX
8572 North Spring Ct., Pickerington, OH 43147 USA
stan-at-stanq-dot-com http://www.stanq.com/charon-vax.html
"OpenVMS, when downtime is not an option"
Stephen Hoffman
2009-02-12 15:43:21 UTC
Permalink
Stanley F. Quayle wrote:

> An Itanium Superdome would make a *great* CHARON-VAX platform. The CHARON products that
> ran on Alpha were replaced with an Itanium version when the Alpha went end-of-life.

Unrelated to CHARON-VAX but apropos of the VAX emulation topic in
general, some simh-related system performance comparisons just popped
onto the local radar, and Linux on gear commonly found in the x86-class
ProLiant boxes was running the simh emulation circa 30 VUPs where
OpenVMS I64 was running at circa 7 VUPs.

Again, this is simh. Your milage with CHARON-VAX will vary, of course.

--
Copyright 2009 HoffmanLabs LLC - all rights reserved
www.HoffmanLabs.com - Custom OpenVMS Services
j***@yahoo.co.uk
2009-02-16 10:07:59 UTC
Permalink
On Feb 12, 3:31 pm, "Stanley F. Quayle" <***@stanq.com> wrote:
> On 11 Feb 2009 at 20:55, William Webb wrote:
>
> > CHARON-VAX/AXP on an OpenVMS/Alpha host is a good alternative. One can build
> > nice clusters on a Marvel as well.
>
> An Itanium Superdome would make a *great* CHARON-VAX platform.  The CHARON products that
> ran on Alpha were replaced with an Itanium version when the Alpha went end-of-life.
>
> --Stan Quayle
> Quayle Consulting Inc.
>
> ----------
> Stanley F. Quayle, P.E. N8SQ  Toll free: 1-888-I-LUV-VAX
> 8572 North Spring Ct., Pickerington, OH  43147  USA
> stan-at-stanq-dot-com  http://www.stanq.com/charon-vax.html
> "OpenVMS, when downtime is not an option"

"An Itanium Superdome would make a *great* CHARON-VAX platform"

You might want to check Hoff's recent post in this ng re performance
of Charon on Itanium vs performance of Charon on Proliant. I'm not
sure of the exact details as the raw data wasn't provided (and I
haven't looked for it), but it looked better for Proliant (in
performance, and very very likely in price) than for IA64.
JF Mezei
2009-02-16 11:18:38 UTC
Permalink
***@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

> You might want to check Hoff's recent post in this ng re performance
> of Charon on Itanium vs performance of Charon on Proliant. I'm not


Since that IA64 thing was designed to rely on compilers to prepare
optimised code ahead of execution, with smarts to optimise high level
language concepts into efficient IA64 instruction streams, can an
emulator achieve the same when looking at foreign binary code ?

I could see VAX being easier to emulate since its opcodes are a "higher
level language" and can be broken down into multiple IA64 opcodes in the
right order.

But for Alpha, since the opcodes are already very simple, wouldn't the
emulator be limited to mapping each Alpha opcode to an IA64 opcode(s)
and executing them sequentially without much/any opportunity to reorder
them and/or inserting IA64 specific stuff to enable parralelism etc ?

Also, since IA64 is very sensitive to alignment faults, wouldn't
VAX/Alpha code generate a huge amouht of alignment faults because their
code may not have been compiled to align data to IA64's liking ?

Or would the emulator have the smarts to notice an upcoming unaligned
memory address and generate instructions that fetched 2 bocks of aligned
memory and then pick out the right bits from 2 registers and put it in one ?


Wouldn't the Alpha have been better suited for emulation since the chip
has the ability to organise opcodes on the fly ?
Bill Gunshannon
2009-01-25 15:49:24 UTC
Permalink
In article <glhnqk$6sn$***@tempo.update.uu.se>,
Johnny Billquist <***@softjar.se> writes:
> Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>> In article <ab43de16-f8a4-4249-8274-***@s1g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
>> ***@yahoo.co.uk writes:
>>> What is possible in an ideal world is not always the same as what is
>>> commonly seen in the real world. It is common for Windows systems to
>>> be exploited, surely you couldn't disagree with that. Partly that is
>>> because Windows boxes are defective by design (especially a Windows
>>> system fresh from a Windows CD, as you have already acknowledged).
>>> Partly that is because of the level of competence and experience and
>>> motivation of the typical Windows-centric IT department (or home
>>> user). Your experience seems to be very different from that of many
>>> people in the Windows world, be they home users, corporates, or
>>> whatever.
>>
>> Well, I hardly consider myself a Windows expert. I don't even like
>> Windows. :-) Which begs the question: "If I can do it, why are the
>> supposed professionals having such a hard time?" My answer is really
>> quite simple. There are millions and millions of Windows boxes out
>> there. A hacked Windows box sells newspapers and magazines. A Windows
>> success story does not. We are being innundated now with stories of
>> "4.9 million" Windows boxes infected with a worm that MS published a
>> fix for months ago. So, who's fault is it that these machines are now
>> getting infected? Windows? MS? Or is it maybe closer to home. (Hint:
>> none of the machines under my control have been hit nor are they even
>> vulnerable. Go figure!)
>
> Oh, come on. That's an argument I've heard a million times, and it just
> don't hold water. That's basically the Microsoft excuse for the problems
> they have - "hey, we don't have any more problems than anyone else, it's
> just that our systems are so much more common, but proportionally they
> are actually better".

NO, I am not saying MS doesn't have problems, I am saying that Windows can
be secure. One has to walk the line between security and functionality.
I have worked in places that go all the way over to the secure side. No
user installed anything. All machines run from a standard image. All
policies pushed from above. No floppies, no CD's, no thumbdrives, strict
control over what sites can be visited on the Internet. And yet, they do
the job they are required to do just fine. IN my day job I have to support
students and faculty. By far the worst environment because you are not
allowed to impact their daily use. You can't block certain web sites. You
have to let them move data around. Back in the days of Win98 I spent a large
part of my time doing re-installs in the labs because that was the only
effective way of cleaning infected systems. That's when we first started
usinf Ghost and master images saved somewhere safe. But, those days are
gone. I learned how to secure the systems and I applied that knowledge.
Problem solved!

>
> They never give any numbers to back up that statement with, though. And
> most people are *not* using MS IIS as their web servers (even if they
> are using Windows), and yet the biggest number of security problems and
> fixes are for IIS. OSes like Linux, *BSD and others are fully free, and
> anyone can audit the code. And that is one reason you have a bunch of
> security problems discovered there, and fixed. Windows do not have such
> auditing, and yet the number of security problems reported are more
> numerous. Granted, the number of systems out there are more, but the
> number of bugs are not proportional to the number of systems you sell.
> (Or atleast, they shouldn't be. I can't really speak for how MS works...)
>
> So, it's basically bollocks. Windows have more security problems.

Possibly, even probably, but it doesn't mean they are insurmountable. And
not all of them require a patch from MS to fix. Some of the worst worm/virus
attacks can be stopped at a firewall. That's part of the "Defense in Depth"
I have mentioned recently. And, it applies to all systems, not just Windows.
Protecting machines requires a systemwide approach, not a narrow too-focused
view.

> And I
> haven't even started on all the brilliant ideas that Microsoft gets,
> such as automatically executing code in incoming mails just in case it
> provides some nifty, fancy extra functionality which makes the user
> experience more pleasant (forgetting that virus programmers just love
> such features).

If you dont like that, it's preventable. Some people like it. And that
is business. Just because one person doesn't like something and sees it
as a major security problem doesn't mean you drop it. That's the way I
feel about OnStar. I woudl require it be removed from any car I was going
to buy. Not disabled. Not turned off. Removed. But I can assure you
GM is not going to stop providing it to the majority of their customers.

bill

--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
***@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
k***@scotty.koehler.athome.net
2009-02-11 19:41:34 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@mid.individual.net>, ***@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>
> God, when will this myth finally end.

When it is no longer true?
Bill Gunshannon
2009-02-12 11:56:26 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@scotty.koehler.athome.net>,
***@scotty.koehler.athome.net writes:
> In article <***@mid.individual.net>, ***@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>>
>> God, when will this myth finally end.
>
> When it is no longer true?

Eisner?

bill


--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
***@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
Bradford Hamilton
2009-02-15 15:05:58 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@mid.individual.net>, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>In article <***@scotty.koehler.athome.net>,
> ***@scotty.koehler.athome.net writes:
>> In article <***@mid.individual.net>, ***@cs.uofs.edu
(Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>>>
>>> God, when will this myth finally end.
>>
>> When it is no longer true?
>
>Eisner?

Although this exchange lacks context, I'm assuming that this is the age-old
discussion revolving around "which OS has better uptimes?"

Using EISNER:: as a counter-example is wrong, because *any* OS that is not
maintained by staff who can devote time (or money) to maintenance is bound
to fail, eventually.

Had "staff" been available at the time of failure, time to return from failure
mode would have been a matter of hours, at most.
[...]
Bill Gunshannon
2009-02-15 17:00:56 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@rabbit.turquoisewitch.com>,
***@news.individual.net (Bradford Hamilton) writes:
> In article <***@mid.individual.net>, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>In article <***@scotty.koehler.athome.net>,
>> ***@scotty.koehler.athome.net writes:
>>> In article <***@mid.individual.net>, ***@cs.uofs.edu
> (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>>>>
>>>> God, when will this myth finally end.
>>>
>>> When it is no longer true?
>>
>>Eisner?
>
> Although this exchange lacks context, I'm assuming that this is the age-old
> discussion revolving around "which OS has better uptimes?"
>
> Using EISNER:: as a counter-example is wrong, because *any* OS that is not
> maintained by staff who can devote time (or money) to maintenance is bound
> to fail, eventually.
>
> Had "staff" been available at the time of failure, time to return from failure
> mode would have been a matter of hours, at most.
> [...]

you did miss the context, which was OSes that can run with no attention
whatsoever. With the constant repeated claim that VMS will and Unix
won't.

And my counter example is the 14 Unix servers I maintain here at the
University. I have had two occaisions of having to leave for military
duty for six month periods. While I am gone, no one is brought in to
fill my shoes. The first time went so well that when I came back I
was greeted by the bean-counter that is my bosses boss with the pleasant
message; "Maybe the department doesn't really need a fulltime systems
administrator." Oh, and for the real nay-sayers, I leave my Windows
boxes for the same periods with no problems either. Sorry to have to
be the one to provide a little modern IT reality to this group.

bill

--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
***@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
DaveG
2009-02-16 14:25:26 UTC
Permalink
On Feb 15, 11:00 am, ***@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
> In article <***@rabbit.turquoisewitch.com>,
>         ***@news.individual.net (Bradford Hamilton) writes:
>
>
>
>
>
> > In article <***@mid.individual.net>, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> >>In article <***@scotty.koehler.athome.net>,
> >>        ***@scotty.koehler.athome.net writes:
> >>> In article <***@mid.individual.net>, ***@cs.uofs.edu
> > (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>
> >>>> God, when will this myth finally end.
>
> >>>    When it is no longer true?
>
> >>Eisner?
>
> > Although this exchange lacks context, I'm assuming that this is the age-old
> > discussion revolving around "which OS has better uptimes?"
>
> > Using EISNER:: as a counter-example is wrong, because *any* OS that is not
> > maintained by staff who can devote time (or money) to maintenance is bound
> > to fail, eventually.
>
> > Had "staff" been available at the time of failure, time to return from failure
> > mode would have been a matter of hours, at most.
> > [...]
>
> you did miss the context, which was OSes that can run with no attention
> whatsoever.  With the constant repeated claim that VMS will and Unix
> won't.
>
> And my counter example is the 14 Unix servers I maintain here at the
> University.  I have had two occaisions of having to leave for military
> duty for six month periods.  While I am gone, no one is brought in to
> fill my shoes.  The first time went so well that when I came back I
> was greeted by the bean-counter that is my bosses boss with the pleasant
> message; "Maybe the department doesn't really need a fulltime systems
> administrator."  Oh, and for the real nay-sayers, I leave my Windows
> boxes for the same periods with no problems either.  Sorry to have to
> be the one to provide a little modern IT reality to this group.
>
> bill
>
> --
> Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
> ***@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
> University of Scranton   |
> Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>  - Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I believe the Eisner problem is hardware not OS related. Granted its
been down quite awhile, but not because of VMS.
Bill Gunshannon
2009-02-16 14:34:25 UTC
Permalink
In article <87790d66-c9e1-453e-b8c4-***@v39g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
DaveG <***@abbott.com> writes:
> On Feb 15, 11:00 am, ***@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
>> In article <***@rabbit.turquoisewitch.com>,
>>         ***@news.individual.net (Bradford Hamilton) writes:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > In article <***@mid.individual.net>, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>> >>In article <***@scotty.koehler.athome.net>,
>> >>        ***@scotty.koehler.athome.net writes:
>> >>> In article <***@mid.individual.net>, ***@cs.uofs.edu
>> > (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>>
>> >>>> God, when will this myth finally end.
>>
>> >>>    When it is no longer true?
>>
>> >>Eisner?
>>
>> > Although this exchange lacks context, I'm assuming that this is the age-old
>> > discussion revolving around "which OS has better uptimes?"
>>
>> > Using EISNER:: as a counter-example is wrong, because *any* OS that is not
>> > maintained by staff who can devote time (or money) to maintenance is bound
>> > to fail, eventually.
>>
>> > Had "staff" been available at the time of failure, time to return from failure
>> > mode would have been a matter of hours, at most.
>> > [...]
>>
>> you did miss the context, which was OSes that can run with no attention
>> whatsoever.  With the constant repeated claim that VMS will and Unix
>> won't.
>>
>> And my counter example is the 14 Unix servers I maintain here at the
>> University.  I have had two occaisions of having to leave for military
>> duty for six month periods.  While I am gone, no one is brought in to
>> fill my shoes.  The first time went so well that when I came back I
>> was greeted by the bean-counter that is my bosses boss with the pleasant
>> message; "Maybe the department doesn't really need a fulltime systems
>> administrator."  Oh, and for the real nay-sayers, I leave my Windows
>> boxes for the same periods with no problems either.  Sorry to have to
>> be the one to provide a little modern IT reality to this group.
>>
> I believe the Eisner problem is hardware not OS related. Granted its
> been down quite awhile, but not because of VMS.

The subject in question was "Systems". Systems are comprised of many parts.
If you are going to separate them then I can say with absolute certainty that
in my past 20 years here at the University I have never had a Unix system
failure because all of the failures we have experienced have been hardware
and not OS related.

bill

--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
***@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
Richard B. Gilbert
2009-02-16 15:39:17 UTC
Permalink
DaveG wrote:
> On Feb 15, 11:00 am, ***@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
>> In article <***@rabbit.turquoisewitch.com>,
>> ***@news.individual.net (Bradford Hamilton) writes:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> In article <***@mid.individual.net>, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>>> In article <***@scotty.koehler.athome.net>,
>>>> ***@scotty.koehler.athome.net writes:
>>>>> In article <***@mid.individual.net>, ***@cs.uofs.edu
>>> (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>>>>>> God, when will this myth finally end.
>>>>> When it is no longer true?
>>>> Eisner?
>>> Although this exchange lacks context, I'm assuming that this is the age-old
>>> discussion revolving around "which OS has better uptimes?"
>>> Using EISNER:: as a counter-example is wrong, because *any* OS that is not
>>> maintained by staff who can devote time (or money) to maintenance is bound
>>> to fail, eventually.
>>> Had "staff" been available at the time of failure, time to return from failure
>>> mode would have been a matter of hours, at most.
>>> [...]
>> you did miss the context, which was OSes that can run with no attention
>> whatsoever. With the constant repeated claim that VMS will and Unix
>> won't.
>>
>> And my counter example is the 14 Unix servers I maintain here at the
>> University. I have had two occaisions of having to leave for military
>> duty for six month periods. While I am gone, no one is brought in to
>> fill my shoes. The first time went so well that when I came back I
>> was greeted by the bean-counter that is my bosses boss with the pleasant
>> message; "Maybe the department doesn't really need a fulltime systems
>> administrator." Oh, and for the real nay-sayers, I leave my Windows
>> boxes for the same periods with no problems either. Sorry to have to
>> be the one to provide a little modern IT reality to this group.
>>
>> bill
>>
>> --
>> Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
>> ***@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
>> University of Scranton |
>> Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h> - Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> I believe the Eisner problem is hardware not OS related. Granted its
> been down quite awhile, but not because of VMS.
>

The problem is both hardware and people! The original failure seems to
have been hardware. The hardware failure was compounded by people
failure. Swapping out a failed (Storageworks) drive can be done in
seconds. Restoring a backup requires a bit more time but not all that much.

It seems to me that the system as a whole could have been designed with
a bit more robustness. A StorageWorks shelf plus an HSZ or HSJ
controller can be set up with an extra drive or "hot spare" that will
automagically replace a failed drive. A human then pops out the failed
drive, replaces it with a good drive and life goes on.

People are also part of a system! The hardware problem, simple in
itself, was compounded by people failure. The design of the
system as a whole appears to have been poorly thought out. There was,
and is, no backup for the guy actually taking care of the system!
DeCoy
2009-02-16 19:03:41 UTC
Permalink
"Richard B. Gilbert" <***@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:***@giganews.com...
> DaveG wrote:
>> On Feb 15, 11:00 am, ***@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
>>> In article <***@rabbit.turquoisewitch.com>,
>>> ***@news.individual.net (Bradford Hamilton) writes:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> In article <***@mid.individual.net>, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>>>> In article <***@scotty.koehler.athome.net>,
>>>>> ***@scotty.koehler.athome.net writes:
>>>>>> In article <***@mid.individual.net>, ***@cs.uofs.edu
>>>> (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>>>>>>> God, when will this myth finally end.
>>>>>> When it is no longer true?
>>>>> Eisner?
>>>> Although this exchange lacks context, I'm assuming that this is the
>>>> age-old
>>>> discussion revolving around "which OS has better uptimes?"
>>>> Using EISNER:: as a counter-example is wrong, because *any* OS that is
>>>> not
>>>> maintained by staff who can devote time (or money) to maintenance is
>>>> bound
>>>> to fail, eventually.
>>>> Had "staff" been available at the time of failure, time to return from
>>>> failure
>>>> mode would have been a matter of hours, at most.
>>>> [...]
>>> you did miss the context, which was OSes that can run with no attention
>>> whatsoever. With the constant repeated claim that VMS will and Unix
>>> won't.
>>>
>>> And my counter example is the 14 Unix servers I maintain here at the
>>> University. I have had two occaisions of having to leave for military
>>> duty for six month periods. While I am gone, no one is brought in to
>>> fill my shoes. The first time went so well that when I came back I
>>> was greeted by the bean-counter that is my bosses boss with the pleasant
>>> message; "Maybe the department doesn't really need a fulltime systems
>>> administrator." Oh, and for the real nay-sayers, I leave my Windows
>>> boxes for the same periods with no problems either. Sorry to have to
>>> be the one to provide a little modern IT reality to this group.
>>>
>>> bill
>>>
>>> --
>>> Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three
>>> wolves
>>> ***@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
>>> University of Scranton |
>>> Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h> - Hide
>>> quoted text -
>>>
>>> - Show quoted text -
>>
>> I believe the Eisner problem is hardware not OS related. Granted its
>> been down quite awhile, but not because of VMS.
>>
>
> The problem is both hardware and people! The original failure seems to
> have been hardware. The hardware failure was compounded by people
> failure. Swapping out a failed (Storageworks) drive can be done in
> seconds. Restoring a backup requires a bit more time but not all that
> much.
>
> It seems to me that the system as a whole could have been designed with a
> bit more robustness. A StorageWorks shelf plus an HSZ or HSJ controller
> can be set up with an extra drive or "hot spare" that will automagically
> replace a failed drive. A human then pops out the failed drive, replaces
> it with a good drive and life goes on.
>
> People are also part of a system! The hardware problem, simple in itself,
> was compounded by people failure. The design of the
> system as a whole appears to have been poorly thought out. There was, and
> is, no backup for the guy actually taking care of the system!

Two comments:

A. The subject of this thread is 2009 VMS Bootcamp notice. That might
explain why I hadn't noticed that Eisner was being discussed.

B. Richard, you state "The design of the system as a whole appears to have
been poorly thought out." Please (with perfect 20-20 hindsight if you wish)
describe a better design - taking into account the obvious constraints. I
would
suggest starting a different topic, rather than continuing in this one.
Richard B. Gilbert
2009-02-16 21:49:04 UTC
Permalink
DeCoy wrote:
> "Richard B. Gilbert" <***@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:***@giganews.com...
>> DaveG wrote:
>>> On Feb 15, 11:00 am, ***@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
>>>> In article <***@rabbit.turquoisewitch.com>,
>>>> ***@news.individual.net (Bradford Hamilton) writes:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> In article <***@mid.individual.net>, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>>>>> In article <***@scotty.koehler.athome.net>,
>>>>>> ***@scotty.koehler.athome.net writes:
>>>>>>> In article <***@mid.individual.net>, ***@cs.uofs.edu
>>>>> (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>>>>>>>> God, when will this myth finally end.
>>>>>>> When it is no longer true?
>>>>>> Eisner?
>>>>> Although this exchange lacks context, I'm assuming that this is the
>>>>> age-old
>>>>> discussion revolving around "which OS has better uptimes?"
>>>>> Using EISNER:: as a counter-example is wrong, because *any* OS that is
>>>>> not
>>>>> maintained by staff who can devote time (or money) to maintenance is
>>>>> bound
>>>>> to fail, eventually.
>>>>> Had "staff" been available at the time of failure, time to return from
>>>>> failure
>>>>> mode would have been a matter of hours, at most.
>>>>> [...]
>>>> you did miss the context, which was OSes that can run with no attention
>>>> whatsoever. With the constant repeated claim that VMS will and Unix
>>>> won't.
>>>>
>>>> And my counter example is the 14 Unix servers I maintain here at the
>>>> University. I have had two occaisions of having to leave for military
>>>> duty for six month periods. While I am gone, no one is brought in to
>>>> fill my shoes. The first time went so well that when I came back I
>>>> was greeted by the bean-counter that is my bosses boss with the pleasant
>>>> message; "Maybe the department doesn't really need a fulltime systems
>>>> administrator." Oh, and for the real nay-sayers, I leave my Windows
>>>> boxes for the same periods with no problems either. Sorry to have to
>>>> be the one to provide a little modern IT reality to this group.
>>>>
>>>> bill
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three
>>>> wolves
>>>> ***@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
>>>> University of Scranton |
>>>> Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h> - Hide
>>>> quoted text -
>>>>
>>>> - Show quoted text -
>>> I believe the Eisner problem is hardware not OS related. Granted its
>>> been down quite awhile, but not because of VMS.
>>>
>> The problem is both hardware and people! The original failure seems to
>> have been hardware. The hardware failure was compounded by people
>> failure. Swapping out a failed (Storageworks) drive can be done in
>> seconds. Restoring a backup requires a bit more time but not all that
>> much.
>>
>> It seems to me that the system as a whole could have been designed with a
>> bit more robustness. A StorageWorks shelf plus an HSZ or HSJ controller
>> can be set up with an extra drive or "hot spare" that will automagically
>> replace a failed drive. A human then pops out the failed drive, replaces
>> it with a good drive and life goes on.
>>
>> People are also part of a system! The hardware problem, simple in itself,
>> was compounded by people failure. The design of the
>> system as a whole appears to have been poorly thought out. There was, and
>> is, no backup for the guy actually taking care of the system!
>
> Two comments:
>
> A. The subject of this thread is 2009 VMS Bootcamp notice. That might
> explain why I hadn't noticed that Eisner was being discussed.
>
Topics tend to drift around here! Sometimes they drift wildly!

> B. Richard, you state "The design of the system as a whole appears to have
> been poorly thought out." Please (with perfect 20-20 hindsight if you wish)
> describe a better design - taking into account the obvious constraints. I
> would
> suggest starting a different topic, rather than continuing in this one.
>
>

I should start by saying that my knowledge of Eisner and the people
behind it is not extensive. Until Eisner failed and became a topic here
on c.o.v., I had never heard of it.

Obvious constraints? Since I have never been a user of Eisner I'm not
certain just what might be "obvious".

Definition: a "system" consists of the people, hardware, and software
necessary to accomplish a specified task.

This failure of Eisner, as I understand it, has a hardware component, a
failed disk drive, and a people component, a custodian who is suddenly
too busy with unrelated matters to attend to problems with the system.

Failure one: a disk drive needs replacement.
Failure two: the custodian of the system is not available to deal with
the problem.
Failure three: there is no one else with the necessary access, skills, etc.
Failure four: Eisner provided a service to a community of users. AFAIK
said users contributed little or nothing to the maintenance and upkeep
of Eisner. (Note that my ENTIRE knowledge of this affair is what I have
read here.) It is necessarily less than complete.

ISTR that a couple of people have volunteered to take over the
maintenance of Eisner. Before this will happen, the current custodian
must agree to hand over: the hardware, software, backup tapes, software
licenses, passwords, operating procedures, documentation, etc. I have
not heard of any progress on this front!

ISTR that, some time ago, I suggested a commercial hosting facility and
a user access fee to cover the cost of hosting it. It's not going to be
cheap; the price of T1 service varies in different parts of the country
but it seems to cost somewhere between $500 and $700 per month. The
custodian of Eisner was, AFAIK, paying this out of his own pocket.

How many users does/did Eisner have? If 500 users will pay $10 per
month for access that gives you a budget of $60,000/year. I have no
idea if this will be sufficient or not.
j***@yahoo.co.uk
2009-02-18 08:35:08 UTC
Permalink
On Feb 16, 9:49 pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" <***@comcast.net>
wrote:
> DeCoy wrote:
> > "Richard B. Gilbert" <***@comcast.net> wrote in message
> >news:***@giganews.com...
> >> DaveG wrote:
> >>> On Feb 15, 11:00 am, ***@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
> >>>> In article <***@rabbit.turquoisewitch.com>,
> >>>> ***@news.individual.net (Bradford Hamilton) writes:
>
> >>>>> In article <***@mid.individual.net>, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> >>>>>> In article <***@scotty.koehler.athome.net>,
> >>>>>> ***@scotty.koehler.athome.net writes:
> >>>>>>> In article <***@mid.individual.net>, ***@cs.uofs.edu
> >>>>> (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
> >>>>>>>> God, when will this myth finally end.
> >>>>>>> When it is no longer true?
> >>>>>> Eisner?
> >>>>> Although this exchange lacks context, I'm assuming that this is the
> >>>>> age-old
> >>>>> discussion revolving around "which OS has better uptimes?"
> >>>>> Using EISNER:: as a counter-example is wrong, because *any* OS that is
> >>>>> not
> >>>>> maintained by staff who can devote time (or money) to maintenance is
> >>>>> bound
> >>>>> to fail, eventually.
> >>>>> Had "staff" been available at the time of failure, time to return from
> >>>>> failure
> >>>>> mode would have been a matter of hours, at most.
> >>>>> [...]
> >>>> you did miss the context, which was OSes that can run with no attention
> >>>> whatsoever. With the constant repeated claim that VMS will and Unix
> >>>> won't.
>
> >>>> And my counter example is the 14 Unix servers I maintain here at the
> >>>> University. I have had two occaisions of having to leave for military
> >>>> duty for six month periods. While I am gone, no one is brought in to
> >>>> fill my shoes. The first time went so well that when I came back I
> >>>> was greeted by the bean-counter that is my bosses boss with the pleasant
> >>>> message; "Maybe the department doesn't really need a fulltime systems
> >>>> administrator." Oh, and for the real nay-sayers, I leave my Windows
> >>>> boxes for the same periods with no problems either. Sorry to have to
> >>>> be the one to provide a little modern IT reality to this group.
>
> >>>> bill
>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three
> >>>> wolves
> >>>> ***@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
> >>>> University of Scranton |
> >>>> Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h> - Hide
> >>>> quoted text -
>
> >>>> - Show quoted text -
> >>> I believe the Eisner problem is hardware not OS related. Granted its
> >>> been down quite awhile, but not because of VMS.
>
> >> The problem is both hardware and people! The original failure seems to
> >> have been hardware. The hardware failure was compounded by people
> >> failure. Swapping out a failed (Storageworks) drive can be done in
> >> seconds. Restoring a backup requires a bit more time but not all that
> >> much.
>
> >> It seems to me that the system as a whole could have been designed with a
> >> bit more robustness. A StorageWorks shelf plus an HSZ or HSJ controller
> >> can be set up with an extra drive or "hot spare" that will automagically
> >> replace a failed drive. A human then pops out the failed drive, replaces
> >> it with a good drive and life goes on.
>
> >> People are also part of a system! The hardware problem, simple in itself,
> >> was compounded by people failure. The design of the
> >> system as a whole appears to have been poorly thought out. There was, and
> >> is, no backup for the guy actually taking care of the system!
>
> > Two comments:
>
> > A. The subject of this thread is 2009 VMS Bootcamp notice. That might
> > explain why I hadn't noticed that Eisner was being discussed.
>
> Topics tend to drift around here! Sometimes they drift wildly!
>
> > B. Richard, you state "The design of the system as a whole appears to have
> > been poorly thought out." Please (with perfect 20-20 hindsight if you wish)
> > describe a better design - taking into account the obvious constraints. I
> > would
> > suggest starting a different topic, rather than continuing in this one.
>
> I should start by saying that my knowledge of Eisner and the people
> behind it is not extensive. Until Eisner failed and became a topic here
> on c.o.v., I had never heard of it.
>
> Obvious constraints? Since I have never been a user of Eisner I'm not
> certain just what might be "obvious".
>
> Definition: a "system" consists of the people, hardware, and software
> necessary to accomplish a specified task.
>
> This failure of Eisner, as I understand it, has a hardware component, a
> failed disk drive, and a people component, a custodian who is suddenly
> too busy with unrelated matters to attend to problems with the system.
>
> Failure one: a disk drive needs replacement.
> Failure two: the custodian of the system is not available to deal with
> the problem.
> Failure three: there is no one else with the necessary access, skills, etc.
> Failure four: Eisner provided a service to a community of users. AFAIK
> said users contributed little or nothing to the maintenance and upkeep
> of Eisner. (Note that my ENTIRE knowledge of this affair is what I have
> read here.) It is necessarily less than complete.
>
> ISTR that a couple of people have volunteered to take over the
> maintenance of Eisner. Before this will happen, the current custodian
> must agree to hand over: the hardware, software, backup tapes, software
> licenses, passwords, operating procedures, documentation, etc. I have
> not heard of any progress on this front!
>
> ISTR that, some time ago, I suggested a commercial hosting facility and
> a user access fee to cover the cost of hosting it. It's not going to be
> cheap; the price of T1 service varies in different parts of the country
> but it seems to cost somewhere between $500 and $700 per month. The
> custodian of Eisner was, AFAIK, paying this out of his own pocket.
>
> How many users does/did Eisner have? If 500 users will pay $10 per
> month for access that gives you a budget of $60,000/year. I have no
> idea if this will be sufficient or not.

Your list is good, but misses one point, maybe the most important:

Failure zero: there was NO PLAN to cope with inevitable disturbances
to "the system" (using the broad definition of "system", including
people).

Occasionally the contingency plan might be "there is no plan, we worry
about xyz when xyz happens"; I've seen it work, in rather unusual
circumstances with a rather unusual team. But any such plan should
arise as a result of conscious discussions of risks and mitigating
factors and all that usual stuff. It shouldn't arise by pretending
that there isn't (and therefore won't be) any real chance of a
particular set of problems. And the "no plan" plan isn't widely
applicable.
JF Mezei
2009-02-18 09:17:35 UTC
Permalink
Tough question:

If the system can afford to be down for so long, is it really needed
anymore ?

I realise that this service has a long history, dating back from the
heydays of VMS.

But considering how the VMS community has shrunk over the last decade,
should the community look at tis and evaluate how/where to go next ?

Should eisner be brought back and be made into a central VMS community
centre, perhaps merged with openvms.org ?

or should it be just let go and have other remaining system act as
servers, wit comp.os.v,s acting as main discussion forum ?

I am not suggesting anything. Just asking.
Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing
2009-02-18 09:25:04 UTC
Permalink
In article <0087b08b$0$19769$***@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <***@vaxination.ca> writes:
>Tough question:
>
>If the system can afford to be down for so long, is it really needed
>anymore ?
>
>I realise that this service has a long history, dating back from the
>heydays of VMS.
>
>But considering how the VMS community has shrunk over the last decade,
>should the community look at tis and evaluate how/where to go next ?
>
>Should eisner be brought back and be made into a central VMS community
>centre, perhaps merged with openvms.org ?
>
>or should it be just let go and have other remaining system act as
>servers, wit comp.os.v,s acting as main discussion forum ?
>
>I am not suggesting anything. Just asking.

Seems to me that unique value-add of running Eisner on a VMS system is
that you get to run Notes and have access to the existing Notes database.

If you just wanted forums (of any kind) and file sharing of zipped archives,
the whole thing could pretty easily run on a $120/year server slice
from something like Dreamhost, basically outsourcing all the hardware and
backup worries and much of the system administration.

But you couldn't run VMS (unless you're cleverer than I am at figuring out how
to run, say, SimH with VMS on an arbitrary Linux-running VM and having it
exposed to the internet) and thus you couldn't run Notes and you wouldn't
have access to the existing knowledge base, which is probably a big loser.

-- Alan
Bill Gunshannon
2009-02-18 13:22:09 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@ssrl.slac.stanford.edu>,
***@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing) writes:
> In article <0087b08b$0$19769$***@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <***@vaxination.ca> writes:
>>Tough question:
>>
>>If the system can afford to be down for so long, is it really needed
>>anymore ?
>>
>>I realise that this service has a long history, dating back from the
>>heydays of VMS.
>>
>>But considering how the VMS community has shrunk over the last decade,
>>should the community look at tis and evaluate how/where to go next ?
>>
>>Should eisner be brought back and be made into a central VMS community
>>centre, perhaps merged with openvms.org ?
>>
>>or should it be just let go and have other remaining system act as
>>servers, wit comp.os.v,s acting as main discussion forum ?
>>
>>I am not suggesting anything. Just asking.
>
> Seems to me that unique value-add of running Eisner on a VMS system is
> that you get to run Notes and have access to the existing Notes database.
>
> If you just wanted forums (of any kind) and file sharing of zipped archives,
> the whole thing could pretty easily run on a $120/year server slice
> from something like Dreamhost, basically outsourcing all the hardware and
> backup worries and much of the system administration.
>
> But you couldn't run VMS (unless you're cleverer than I am at figuring out how
> to run, say, SimH with VMS on an arbitrary Linux-running VM and having it
> exposed to the internet) and thus you couldn't run Notes and you wouldn't
> have access to the existing knowledge base, which is probably a big loser.

1. Why are you concerned about Linux on the Internet? There are
millions of them everyday. And that includes a lot of Internet
appliances that are actually Linux under the hood.

2. Why could you not run your system where the only Internet exposure
would be the VMS instance? It really is easy to turn off all the generic
but un-needed services.

bill

--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
***@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
k***@spock.koehler.athome.net
2009-02-17 20:29:45 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@mid.individual.net>, ***@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
> In article <***@scotty.koehler.athome.net>,
> ***@scotty.koehler.athome.net writes:
>> In article <***@mid.individual.net>, ***@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>>>
>>> God, when will this myth finally end.
>>
>> When it is no longer true?
>
> Eisner?

One little hardware failure? I don't think so.
Bill Gunshannon
2009-02-18 13:23:41 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@spock.koehler.athome.net>,
***@spock.koehler.athome.net writes:
> In article <***@mid.individual.net>, ***@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>> In article <***@scotty.koehler.athome.net>,
>> ***@scotty.koehler.athome.net writes:
>>> In article <***@mid.individual.net>, ***@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>>>>
>>>> God, when will this myth finally end.
>>>
>>> When it is no longer true?
>>
>> Eisner?
>
> One little hardware failure? I don't think so.

Hey, doesn't go very far in supporting the 24x7x365, all 9's that people
here have constantly claimed was only possible with VMS.

bill


--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
***@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
David J Dachtera
2009-01-13 02:55:18 UTC
Permalink
Christopher wrote:
>
> On Jan 7, 6:53 pm, JF Mezei <***@vaxination.ca> wrote:
> > Asking a question here, not trying to pass judgement.
> >
> > What is the feeling about cancellation of the bootcamp ? Is this purely
> > because they feel not enough people would show up due to economic
> > circumstances ?
> >
>
> I am an HP employee. Due to the "economic situation" HP cancelled
> pretty much ALL non-sales related travel, and pretty much all non-
> revenue-generating events.

Well, given the damage their sales force did to VMS and HP as a whole
(pushed UX over VMS, causing HP customers to "flee" to IBM and AIX,
especially in the healthcare sector), maybe they should cancel all sales
related travel and focus on damage control...

D.J.D.
bradhamilton
2009-01-08 00:23:58 UTC
Permalink
DaveG wrote:

[...]
> This came to mind. Perhaps the move of the OpenVMS org from NH to MA
> played into this. The NH location "featured" a hotel and mini-
> conference center within walking distance of ZKO. Maybe no so in
> Marlboro.
>
>
There are a number of hotels/conference centers "close to" MRO, although
I'm quite sure the hotels in the area would probably send around
shuttles for the < 5 minute drive.
> Dave...
> _______________________________________________
> Info-vax mailing list
> Info-***@rbnsn.com
> http://rbnsn.com/mailman/listinfo/info-vax_rbnsn.com
>
>
bradhamilton
2009-01-08 00:23:58 UTC
Permalink
DaveG wrote:

[...]
> This came to mind. Perhaps the move of the OpenVMS org from NH to MA
> played into this. The NH location "featured" a hotel and mini-
> conference center within walking distance of ZKO. Maybe no so in
> Marlboro.
>
>
There are a number of hotels/conference centers "close to" MRO, although
I'm quite sure the hotels in the area would probably send around
shuttles for the < 5 minute drive.
> Dave...
> _______________________________________________
> Info-vax mailing list
> Info-***@rbnsn.com
> http://rbnsn.com/mailman/listinfo/info-vax_rbnsn.com
>
>
DaveG
2009-01-08 15:05:55 UTC
Permalink
On Jan 7, 6:23 pm, bradhamilton <***@comcast.net> wrote:
> DaveG wrote:
>
> [...]> This came to mind.  Perhaps the move of the OpenVMS org from NH to MA
> > played into this.  The NH location "featured" a hotel and mini-
> > conference center within walking distance of ZKO.  Maybe no so in
> > Marlboro.
>
> There are a number of hotels/conference centers "close to" MRO, although
> I'm quite sure the hotels in the area would probably send around
> shuttles for the < 5 minute drive.
>
>
>
> > Dave...
> > _______________________________________________
> > Info-vax mailing list
> > Info-***@rbnsn.com
> >http://rbnsn.com/mailman/listinfo/info-vax_rbnsn.com- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Thanks for the update Brad.
IanMiller
2009-01-08 10:07:30 UTC
Permalink
On 7 Jan, 15:27, DaveG <***@abbott.com> wrote:
> On Jan 7, 9:04 am, DaveG <***@abbott.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jan 7, 6:01 am, JF Mezei <***@vaxination.ca> wrote:
>
> > > I got an email from Sue, and it hadn't been posted here yet. Hope Sue
> > > won't mind my posting it here.
>
> > > From: McQuaid, Ann
> > > To: Skonetski, Susan
> > > Cc: Herman, Wendy
> > > Subject: boot camp
>
> > > Hello Boot Camp Attendees,
>
> > > As you know, the OpenVMS team prides itself on conducting the very
> > > highest quality Technical Training in the industry, allowing for a
> > > collaborative exchange of information and ideas with Customers and
> > > Partners around the world.  There is no doubt that the knowledge shared
> > > and the personal connections made during these face-2-face events is
> > > invaluable!  However, given today's economic status and realizing that
> > > many companies are restricting travel including HP, we find ourselves in
> > > a position of having to cancel this year's OpenVMS Boot Camp.
>
> > > As always we greatly appreciate your business and welcome your calls and
> > > emails.
>
> > >  Ann McQuaid
> > > General Manager
> > > OpenVMS, Tru64, Alpha & MCBS Customer Programs
> > > Hewlett-Packard Company
> > > ***@hp.com<mailto:***@hp.com>
> > > Admin: Susan Christie
> > > 598-467-9999
>
> > > ------------------------------------
>
> > > I wonder if HP might replace this with travelling presentations (if
> > > people can't afford to travel, perhaps get Sue and a few enginers to
> > > travel to people).
>
> > > In terms of Mrs McQuaid's title, does anyone know what MCBS is ?
>
> > > Does her title really mean "General manager of mature technologies" ?
>
> > In years past, we've had people from the OpenVMS organization come to
> > Chicagoland for day long LUG (now chapter) events.  We've also had
> > individuals out for normal LUG meetings.  Last were Meg W. and Leo D.
> > back in '06.  Being in a large metro area helps, although our
> > attendance is way down from what it used to be.
>
> > Helps to have an OpenVMS Ambassador in the area as we do.  We are
> > fortunate to have a very good one in our neck of the woods.  In fact,
> > we have a meeting later this evening to plan for '09.
>
> > Dave...- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> This came to mind.  Perhaps the move of the OpenVMS org from NH to MA
> played into this.  The NH location "featured" a hotel and mini-
> conference center within walking distance of ZKO.  Maybe no so in
> Marlboro.
>
> Dave...


I don't think the move had anything to with it. There is no reason why
this years event could have been at the same hotel as previous years.
The trucks would just have to travel a bit further.
Many companies have travel restrictions this year which are more
severe than in previous years and training budgets are even rarer than
previously.
Richard Maher
2009-01-07 23:29:11 UTC
Permalink
Hi JF,

> invaluable! However, given today's economic status and realizing that
> many companies are restricting travel including HP, we find ourselves in
> a position of having to cancel this year's OpenVMS Boot Camp.

On the up-side, just think about all that extra "free time" that the HP/VMS
speakers, presenters, and the attendees now have on their hands. Hey, is
that a "CRON Scheduler for VMS" project I hear starting up? But who on earth
would be willing to head-up such a valuable and worthy project? Chance to
give EDS a guernsey? Last time I looked they also had their full-complement
of navel-gazing wasters.

> I wonder if HP might replace this with travelling presentations (if
> people can't afford to travel, perhaps get Sue and a few enginers to
> travel to people).

Or they could just come out of their ivory towers and use the bloody
internet like everyone else! Ooh and face unpleasantness and unsavoury
characters; surely they'll bruise?

Depemds whether you're trying to communicate with the user-base or control
what the user-base has to say to your manager, I suppose.

NDA my arse!

Regards Richard Maher

PS. If you got a copy of Sue's last "VMS Update" then I'd be curious to see
that as well.

"JF Mezei" <***@vaxination.ca> wrote in message
news:0050a3de$0$4649$***@news.astraweb.com...
> I got an email from Sue, and it hadn't been posted here yet. Hope Sue
> won't mind my posting it here.
>
> From: McQuaid, Ann
> To: Skonetski, Susan
> Cc: Herman, Wendy
> Subject: boot camp
>
> Hello Boot Camp Attendees,
>
> As you know, the OpenVMS team prides itself on conducting the very
> highest quality Technical Training in the industry, allowing for a
> collaborative exchange of information and ideas with Customers and
> Partners around the world. There is no doubt that the knowledge shared
> and the personal connections made during these face-2-face events is
> invaluable! However, given today's economic status and realizing that
> many companies are restricting travel including HP, we find ourselves in
> a position of having to cancel this year's OpenVMS Boot Camp.
>
> As always we greatly appreciate your business and welcome your calls and
> emails.
>
>
> Ann McQuaid
> General Manager
> OpenVMS, Tru64, Alpha & MCBS Customer Programs
> Hewlett-Packard Company
> ***@hp.com<mailto:***@hp.com>
> Admin: Susan Christie
> 598-467-9999
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> I wonder if HP might replace this with travelling presentations (if
> people can't afford to travel, perhaps get Sue and a few enginers to
> travel to people).
>
> In terms of Mrs McQuaid's title, does anyone know what MCBS is ?
>
> Does her title really mean "General manager of mature technologies" ?
Sue
2009-01-08 03:50:06 UTC
Permalink
On Jan 7, 6:29 pm, "Richard Maher" <***@hotspamnotmail.com>
wrote:
> Hi JF,
>
> > invaluable!  However, given today's economic status and realizing that
> > many companies are restricting travel including HP, we find ourselves in
> > a position of having to cancel this year's OpenVMS Boot Camp.
>
> On the up-side, just think about all that extra "free time" that the HP/VMS
> speakers, presenters, and the attendees now have on their hands. Hey, is
> that a "CRON Scheduler for VMS" project I hear starting up? But who on earth
> would be willing to head-up such a valuable and worthy project? Chance to
> give EDS a guernsey? Last time I looked they also had their full-complement
> of navel-gazing wasters.
>
> > I wonder if HP might replace this with travelling presentations (if
> > people can't afford to travel, perhaps get Sue and a few enginers to
> > travel to people).
>
> Or they could just come out of their ivory towers and use the bloody
> internet like everyone else! Ooh and face unpleasantness and unsavoury
> characters; surely they'll bruise?
>
> Depemds whether you're trying to communicate with the user-base or control
> what the user-base has to say to your manager, I suppose.
>
> NDA my arse!
>
> Regards Richard Maher
>
> PS. If you got a copy of Sue's last "VMS Update" then I'd be curious to see
> that as well.
>
> "JF Mezei" <***@vaxination.ca> wrote in message
>
> news:0050a3de$0$4649$***@news.astraweb.com...
>
>
>
> > I got an email from Sue, and it hadn't been posted here yet. Hope Sue
> > won't mind my posting it here.
>
> > From: McQuaid, Ann
> > To: Skonetski, Susan
> > Cc: Herman, Wendy
> > Subject: boot camp
>
> > Hello Boot Camp Attendees,
>
> > As you know, the OpenVMS team prides itself on conducting the very
> > highest quality Technical Training in the industry, allowing for a
> > collaborative exchange of information and ideas with Customers and
> > Partners around the world.  There is no doubt that the knowledge shared
> > and the personal connections made during these face-2-face events is
> > invaluable!  However, given today's economic status and realizing that
> > many companies are restricting travel including HP, we find ourselves in
> > a position of having to cancel this year's OpenVMS Boot Camp.
>
> > As always we greatly appreciate your business and welcome your calls and
> > emails.
>
> >  Ann McQuaid
> > General Manager
> > OpenVMS, Tru64, Alpha & MCBS Customer Programs
> > Hewlett-Packard Company
> > ***@hp.com<mailto:***@hp.com>
> > Admin: Susan Christie
> > 598-467-9999
>
> > ------------------------------------
>
> > I wonder if HP might replace this with travelling presentations (if
> > people can't afford to travel, perhaps get Sue and a few enginers to
> > travel to people).
>
> > In terms of Mrs McQuaid's title, does anyone know what MCBS is ?
>
> > Does her title really mean "General manager of mature technologies" ?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Richard,

I do not know where you have ever met the VMS engineers that have left
such a bad feeling, but they certainly do not live in Ivory towers and
they certainly have done their best to work with customers for the
last 32 years. If there is a specific problem that you have lets have
it out but could you please stop bad mouthing the engineers. They are
a bunch of hard working people doing their best and they now avoid
this news group because of your comments. If you do not like me or my
comments then please deal with me but your negative comments hurt the
customers and the engineers.

Sue
Richard Maher
2009-01-08 22:43:33 UTC
Permalink
Hi Sue,

> but could you please stop bad mouthing the engineers.

Excuse me? I have nothing but the utmost respect for most in true *VMS*
engineering, and for those few people left at the technical coal-face! I've
also dedicated over 25 years of my life to the evangelical crusade to bring
the true beauty of VMS to customers spread over four countries in industries
as diverse as Banking/Finance, Telecommunications, and Mining. (And I weep
at the thought of the Christian Mosers et al of this world being on the
market while HP/VMS limps on with the same top-heavy managerial disaster
that has been been screwing up for 20 years :-( But the clingers-on,
camp-followers, and quasi-management-leaches are a different story!

No, I think the true targets of my contempt and loathing within HP/VMS have
not in fact been cleverly concealed by my tact and subtlety, but rather that
it may just be convenient to paint what I have had to say as an unwarranted
attack on VMS Engineering.

Who knows, maybe more people read my posts than I thought? I'm happy to send
Ann the Director's cut in future if she's interested?

> They are
> a bunch of hard working people doing their best

Yes, I love mom and apple-pie too, and where's a flag I can wrap myself in?

> and they now avoid
> this news group because of your comments

"Now"? Haven't they been withdrawing their attendance for about five years?
Anyway I'm flattered, but I guess there's always gonna be a Precious and a
Dame Nellie Melba in evry organization that insist on only being approached
with due deference and decorum. But to coin a phrase "Who gives a shit?".
The DEC/Digital cult of personality and movie-stars has long since passed
its use-by date. Where are the grafters?

While I'm sure there are many here who'd rather fawn all over a B-grade
VMS-engineer in a sychophantic frenzy long before they'd listen to my crap,
there is also a select few who like to laugh their tits off every time I
hold a mirror up to the axe-deserving incompetence an ineptitude of VMS
middle-management. COV's a broad church; there's room for everyone. Having
said that, I'd much prefer that those doing the code had a life, clocked off
of an evening, and went home to their families and not give a second thought
for this gaggle of border-line personality disorders.

I tell you what though, if Precious, Nellie, and Co aren't up for slumming
it, why don't you get them to set up a couple of bloggs? I believe the
"Thought Leadership" tag has recently been released :-) or perhaps
www.fromtheashram.com?

> but your negative comments hurt the
> customers and the engineers.

Au contraire Sue, sadly what I say has meant little, it is the litany of
disasters that have been inflicted on the user-base by those in VMS
"management" who have some how been able to dodge any scrutiny,
accountability, and sanction for tha paast twenty years that is hurting
customers, engineers, and VMS!

Anyway, let's leave aside the (numerous) attacks on Richard Maher and these
bread-and-circuses that can only serve as a distraction. VMS is a BUSINESS,
a business that sadly has been failing for over 15 years :-( It's not about
people, it's about licenses and about dollars and about delivering a product
that people want to buy while not desrting the installed base that is paying
the bills. Turning that around is what's important!

On that note, what has been proven is that HP/VMS does not have a managerial
team in place that is capable of delivering on or growing what is
demonstrably the best OS on the market. I plead with all to let the Global
Financial Crisis and the EDS Merger be agents of change. There is still so
much dead-wood in VMS making the same poor decisions year after year; it's
time they had the opportunity to experience the real-world first-hand! It
simply cannot get any worse; untrained-gibbons delivering nothing but "what
the others are doing" except with crap performance and at a distance of 2 to
10 years is not a winning formula :-(

How big is the installed base Sue? *Why* won't you/HP tell us? We're all up
for a challenge and VMS can still be turned around, but *not* while you're
all still in denial about being able to distinguish your arse from your
elbow when it comes to knowing what VMS customers really want! Will it still
be green-screens and FTP in five years Sue?

> If you do not like me or my
> comments then please deal with me but

Sue, I'm afraid you have me at a disadvantage. Everyone else hear appears to
know exactly who you are and what you do at HP but I don't. We did meet
briefly once in London and I recall that you yourself said that you weren't
from the technical side of VMS but you're obviously a passionate advocate
and tireless worker. I also don't recall you being in "Management" either
but maybe that's changed? Either way, I'm always up for a chin-wag, but I'll
continue to level my criticisms at whoever and whenever I please thanks very
much!

Regards Richard Maher

"Sue" <***@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1d19095e-9074-44d9-bff3-***@x16g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 7, 6:29 pm, "Richard Maher" <***@hotspamnotmail.com>
wrote:
> Hi JF,
>
> > invaluable! However, given today's economic status and realizing that
> > many companies are restricting travel including HP, we find ourselves in
> > a position of having to cancel this year's OpenVMS Boot Camp.
>
> On the up-side, just think about all that extra "free time" that the
HP/VMS
> speakers, presenters, and the attendees now have on their hands. Hey, is
> that a "CRON Scheduler for VMS" project I hear starting up? But who on
earth
> would be willing to head-up such a valuable and worthy project? Chance to
> give EDS a guernsey? Last time I looked they also had their
full-complement
> of navel-gazing wasters.
>
> > I wonder if HP might replace this with travelling presentations (if
> > people can't afford to travel, perhaps get Sue and a few enginers to
> > travel to people).
>
> Or they could just come out of their ivory towers and use the bloody
> internet like everyone else! Ooh and face unpleasantness and unsavoury
> characters; surely they'll bruise?
>
> Depemds whether you're trying to communicate with the user-base or control
> what the user-base has to say to your manager, I suppose.
>
> NDA my arse!
>
> Regards Richard Maher
>
> PS. If you got a copy of Sue's last "VMS Update" then I'd be curious to
see
> that as well.
>
> "JF Mezei" <***@vaxination.ca> wrote in message
>
> news:0050a3de$0$4649$***@news.astraweb.com...
>
>
>
> > I got an email from Sue, and it hadn't been posted here yet. Hope Sue
> > won't mind my posting it here.
>
> > From: McQuaid, Ann
> > To: Skonetski, Susan
> > Cc: Herman, Wendy
> > Subject: boot camp
>
> > Hello Boot Camp Attendees,
>
> > As you know, the OpenVMS team prides itself on conducting the very
> > highest quality Technical Training in the industry, allowing for a
> > collaborative exchange of information and ideas with Customers and
> > Partners around the world. There is no doubt that the knowledge shared
> > and the personal connections made during these face-2-face events is
> > invaluable! However, given today's economic status and realizing that
> > many companies are restricting travel including HP, we find ourselves in
> > a position of having to cancel this year's OpenVMS Boot Camp.
>
> > As always we greatly appreciate your business and welcome your calls and
> > emails.
>
> > Ann McQuaid
> > General Manager
> > OpenVMS, Tru64, Alpha & MCBS Customer Programs
> > Hewlett-Packard Company
> > ***@hp.com<mailto:***@hp.com>
> > Admin: Susan Christie
> > 598-467-9999
>
> > ------------------------------------
>
> > I wonder if HP might replace this with travelling presentations (if
> > people can't afford to travel, perhaps get Sue and a few enginers to
> > travel to people).
>
> > In terms of Mrs McQuaid's title, does anyone know what MCBS is ?
>
> > Does her title really mean "General manager of mature technologies" ?-
Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Richard,

I do not know where you have ever met the VMS engineers that have left
such a bad feeling, but they certainly do not live in Ivory towers and
they certainly have done their best to work with customers for the
last 32 years. If there is a specific problem that you have lets have
it out but could you please stop bad mouthing the engineers. They are
a bunch of hard working people doing their best and they now avoid
this news group because of your comments. If you do not like me or my
comments then please deal with me but your negative comments hurt the
customers and the engineers.

Sue
Richard Maher
2009-01-14 00:59:05 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

I wrote: -
> On that note, what has been proven is that HP/VMS does not have a
managerial
> team in place that is capable of delivering on or growing what is
> demonstrably the best OS on the market. I plead with all to let the Global
> Financial Crisis and the EDS Merger be agents of change. There is still so
> much dead-wood in VMS making the same poor decisions year after year; it's
> time they had the opportunity to experience the real-world first-hand! It
> simply cannot get any worse; untrained-gibbons delivering nothing but
"what
> the others are doing" except with crap performance and at a distance of 2
to
> 10 years is not a winning formula :-(

Just to clarify, the remedial treatment for the body-VMS that I had in mind
here consisted of some industrial strength delousing, plus rock-salt and
cigarette-butts for the leaches, combined with 6-pints and a prawn-vindaloo
for the Free-Timers.What I didn't expect was for that to appear on the
patients chart as a brain-amputation followed by a complete-cardiac-bypass!

"simply cannot get any worse" eh? Yeah right :-(

One can always seek solace in the hope that the usual suspects have got it
wrong (yet again :-) but if you're of a religious disposition, given to
prayer and the belief in miracles, then I would ask you to join me with
hands-clasped and heads-bowed.

Cheers Richard Maher

PPS. Brian, you can wave a dead chicken over your head or whatever it is you
do :-)
Bob Gezelter
2009-01-08 10:40:30 UTC
Permalink
On Jan 7, 6:29 pm, "Richard Maher" <***@hotspamnotmail.com>
wrote:
> Hi JF,
>
> > invaluable!  However, given today's economic status and realizing that
> > many companies are restricting travel including HP, we find ourselves in
> > a position of having to cancel this year's OpenVMS Boot Camp.
>
> On the up-side, just think about all that extra "free time" that the HP/VMS
> speakers, presenters, and the attendees now have on their hands. Hey, is
> that a "CRON Scheduler for VMS" project I hear starting up? But who on earth
> would be willing to head-up such a valuable and worthy project? Chance to
> give EDS a guernsey? Last time I looked they also had their full-complement
> of navel-gazing wasters.
>
> > I wonder if HP might replace this with travelling presentations (if
> > people can't afford to travel, perhaps get Sue and a few enginers to
> > travel to people).
>
> Or they could just come out of their ivory towers and use the bloody
> internet like everyone else! Ooh and face unpleasantness and unsavoury
> characters; surely they'll bruise?
>
> Depemds whether you're trying to communicate with the user-base or control
> what the user-base has to say to your manager, I suppose.
>
> NDA my arse!
>
> Regards Richard Maher
>
> PS. If you got a copy of Sue's last "VMS Update" then I'd be curious to see
> that as well.
>
> "JF Mezei" <***@vaxination.ca> wrote in message
>
> news:0050a3de$0$4649$***@news.astraweb.com...
>
> > I got an email from Sue, and it hadn't been posted here yet. Hope Sue
> > won't mind my posting it here.
>
> > From: McQuaid, Ann
> > To: Skonetski, Susan
> > Cc: Herman, Wendy
> > Subject: boot camp
>
> > Hello Boot Camp Attendees,
>
> > As you know, the OpenVMS team prides itself on conducting the very
> > highest quality Technical Training in the industry, allowing for a
> > collaborative exchange of information and ideas with Customers and
> > Partners around the world.  There is no doubt that the knowledge shared
> > and the personal connections made during these face-2-face events is
> > invaluable!  However, given today's economic status and realizing that
> > many companies are restricting travel including HP, we find ourselves in
> > a position of having to cancel this year's OpenVMS Boot Camp.
>
> > As always we greatly appreciate your business and welcome your calls and
> > emails.
>
> >  Ann McQuaid
> > General Manager
> > OpenVMS, Tru64, Alpha & MCBS Customer Programs
> > Hewlett-Packard Company
> > ***@hp.com<mailto:***@hp.com>
> > Admin: Susan Christie
> > 598-467-9999
>
> > ------------------------------------
>
> > I wonder if HP might replace this with travelling presentations (if
> > people can't afford to travel, perhaps get Sue and a few enginers to
> > travel to people).
>
> > In terms of Mrs McQuaid's title, does anyone know what MCBS is ?
>
> > Does her title really mean "General manager of mature technologies" ?

Richard,

I refrained from responding to your comment about OpenVMS Engineering,
but in light of some points Sue made, it is worth putting in my US$
0.02.

I doubt that anybody will accuse me of being an OpenVMS sycophant.
Those who attend symposia and the bootcamps know that I have publicly
asked many questions that perhaps some would rather not be asked.
Those who were there also know that I am not always 100% pleased by
the answers that I receive.

However, accusing OpenVMS Engineering of "hiding in an ivory tower"
is, frankly IMO, quite undeserved. OpenVMS Engineering has facilitated
contact between line engineers and customers at these events over the
entire history of OpenVMS dating back 30 years, and constructive
conversations often take place. This is often not the case for the
wide variety of other vendors with which I have dealings. In many of
those cases, it is virtually impossible to identify, much less
contact, those on the actual development team.

Everybody has their shortcomings, but on balance communications with
OpenVMS Engineering are good. I would rather have the dialogue and
discussion channels that we have had, and will hopefully continue to
have, with OpenVMS Engineering, than have the communications that I
deal with on other products, both proprietary and open source.

Long ago, there were some "flame wars" which gave some the impression
that it was not wise to post in the newsgroup (one can access my
January 1, 1993 "Courtesy and Civility" critique of those "flames" and
wars at
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.vms/tree/browse_frm/month/1993-01/35a84dca088cdece?rnum=11&_done=%2Fgroup%2Fcomp.os.vms%2Fbrowse_frm%2Fmonth%2F1993-01%3F#doc_9cb2377b91254e1b).
It now seems apparent that this problem does go beyond novices and
newbies, and affects others.

If a technical issue is being discussed, then it is a technical issue.
If it is a product management issue, engage the product management
team.

- Bob Gezelter, http://www.rlgsc.com
Richard Maher
2009-01-08 23:24:29 UTC
Permalink
Hi Bob,

> However, accusing OpenVMS Engineering of "hiding in an ivory tower"

Aahh I think I get it now, accusing some in engineering of being (I don't
recall using the word "hiding" but no matter) in an Ivory Tower is the
heinous crime that I'm accused of?

I'm guessing I have about as much chance as Saint Thomas Moore here but
anyway. . .

Please permit me to quote: -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivory_tower
"
Sue
2009-01-08 03:39:22 UTC
Permalink
On Jan 7, 7:01 am, JF Mezei <***@vaxination.ca> wrote:
> I got an email from Sue, and it hadn't been posted here yet. Hope Sue
> won't mind my posting it here.
>
> From: McQuaid, Ann
> To: Skonetski, Susan
> Cc: Herman, Wendy
> Subject: boot camp
>
> Hello Boot Camp Attendees,
>
> As you know, the OpenVMS team prides itself on conducting the very
> highest quality Technical Training in the industry, allowing for a
> collaborative exchange of information and ideas with Customers and
> Partners around the world.  There is no doubt that the knowledge shared
> and the personal connections made during these face-2-face events is
> invaluable!  However, given today's economic status and realizing that
> many companies are restricting travel including HP, we find ourselves in
> a position of having to cancel this year's OpenVMS Boot Camp.
>
> As always we greatly appreciate your business and welcome your calls and
> emails.
>
>  Ann McQuaid
> General Manager
> OpenVMS, Tru64, Alpha & MCBS Customer Programs
> Hewlett-Packard Company
> ***@hp.com<mailto:***@hp.com>
> Admin: Susan Christie
> 598-467-9999
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> I wonder if HP might replace this with travelling presentations (if
> people can't afford to travel, perhaps get Sue and a few enginers to
> travel to people).
>
> In terms of Mrs McQuaid's title, does anyone know what MCBS is ?
>
> Does her title really mean "General manager of mature technologies" ?

Dear JF,

I do not mind your posting this message.

MCBS - Mission Critical Business Servers, this is the group that VMS
is part of reporting to Jennifer Millier (VMS, UX, Linux, Windows)
everything but NSK.

Sue
JF Mezei
2009-01-08 06:19:47 UTC
Permalink
Sue wrote:

> MCBS - Mission Critical Business Servers, this is the group that VMS
> is part of reporting to Jennifer Millier (VMS, UX, Linux, Windows)
> everything but NSK.

What is this week's pecking order ?

Sue - Ann McQuaid - Jennifer Millier ????? Mark Hurd


Ir Mr Fink still in there somewhere ?

And is the top still Hurd -Livermore- Stallard or has one been moved out
of the list ?
Michael Unger
2009-01-09 15:48:16 UTC
Permalink
On 2009-01-08 04:39, "Sue" wrote:

> [...]
>
> MCBS - Mission Critical Business Servers, this is the group that VMS
> is part of reporting to Jennifer Millier (VMS, UX, Linux, Windows)
> everything but NSK.

Strange -- Windows is considered "mission critical", NSK isn't ...

Michael

--
Real names enhance the probability of getting real answers.
My e-mail account at DECUS Munich is no longer valid.
pos
2009-01-08 16:42:03 UTC
Permalink
alternate boot device anyone?

eg webex?


"JF Mezei" <***@vaxination.ca> wrote in message
news:0050a3de$0$4649$***@news.astraweb.com...
> I got an email from Sue, and it hadn't been posted here yet. Hope Sue
> won't mind my posting it here.
>
> From: McQuaid, Ann
> To: Skonetski, Susan
> Cc: Herman, Wendy
> Subject: boot camp
>
> Hello Boot Camp Attendees,
>
> As you know, the OpenVMS team prides itself on conducting the very
> highest quality Technical Training in the industry, allowing for a
> collaborative exchange of information and ideas with Customers and
> Partners around the world. There is no doubt that the knowledge shared
> and the personal connections made during these face-2-face events is
> invaluable! However, given today's economic status and realizing that
> many companies are restricting travel including HP, we find ourselves in
> a position of having to cancel this year's OpenVMS Boot Camp.
>
> As always we greatly appreciate your business and welcome your calls and
> emails.
>
>
> Ann McQuaid
> General Manager
> OpenVMS, Tru64, Alpha & MCBS Customer Programs
> Hewlett-Packard Company
> ***@hp.com<mailto:***@hp.com>
> Admin: Susan Christie
> 598-467-9999
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> I wonder if HP might replace this with travelling presentations (if
> people can't afford to travel, perhaps get Sue and a few enginers to
> travel to people).
>
> In terms of Mrs McQuaid's title, does anyone know what MCBS is ?
>
> Does her title really mean "General manager of mature technologies" ?
Continue reading on narkive:
Loading...