[Info-vax] VAXstation 4000, batteries, and Dallas DS1287A

[JF Mezei via Info-vax]

Ok, hardware dummy here. Today my VAXstation 4000 model 90A started
acting up. Did some research, read some old posts which mention
firmware, battery, and the Dallas DS1287A chip.
I can not find anything on the motherboard that looks like a battery.
Is the Dallas chip the battery?

The dreaded Dallas chip is a chip that has an embedded battery and clock
circuitry. I know it is on the DS10L, didn't realise it was ever used on
VAXen.

There is a web site somewhere which describes how you can basically
drill 2 small holes to reach connectors, solder wires and attach an
external battery.

Wouldn't those leads be accessible from under the motherboar where the
pins come out ? (or by scratching the motherboard to access the copper
traces that leave the chip ?

[glen herrmannsfeldt via Info-vax]

Post by JF Mezei via Info-vax

Ok, hardware dummy here. Today my VAXstation 4000 model 90A started
acting up. Did some research, read some old posts which mention
firmware, battery, and the Dallas DS1287A chip.

(snip)

Post by JF Mezei via Info-vax
The dreaded Dallas chip is a chip that has an embedded battery and clock
circuitry. I know it is on the DS10L, didn't realise it was ever used on
VAXen.

I know the 3100/30 uses a rechargable battery to power the clock.
If powered off for long enough, it stops.

Post by JF Mezei via Info-vax
There is a web site somewhere which describes how you can basically
drill 2 small holes to reach connectors, solder wires and attach an
external battery.
Wouldn't those leads be accessible from under the motherboar where the
pins come out ? (or by scratching the motherboard to access the copper
traces that leave the chip ?

The battery connects to the chip inside, but not to external pins.
You probably need to disconnect the old battery before adding
a new one.

There is another chip that is similar, but not exactly the same,
and is also cheaper. (Sun systems can tell the difference.)

-- glen

[Stephen Hoffman via Info-vax]

Today my VAXstation 4000 model 90A started acting up. Did some
research, read some old posts which mention firmware, battery, and the
Dallas DS1287A chip.
I can not find anything on the motherboard that looks like a battery.
Is the Dallas chip the battery?

The Dallas Chip is a socketed DIP chip, and contains NVRAM for console
settings, Time Of Year clock, and a battery.

Info, links: <http://labs.hoffmanlabs.com/node/441>

I'm guessing the first thing to do is replace the Dallas chip. Before
ordering one and waiting, just asking, should this be my first step.

What are the particular symptoms of "acting up"? Any console messages?
LED patterns? Beeps? Generic SOD ( Sudden Onset Dead)?

Other options include staging the Viking funeral or a transition to
museum static display, and a migration to a less-ancient box.

[David Froble via Info-vax]

Post by Stephen Hoffman via Info-vax

Today my VAXstation 4000 model 90A started acting up. Did some
research, read some old posts which mention firmware, battery, and the
Dallas DS1287A chip.
I can not find anything on the motherboard that looks like a battery.
Is the Dallas chip the battery?

The Dallas Chip is a socketed DIP chip, and contains NVRAM for console
settings, Time Of Year clock, and a battery.
Info, links: <http://labs.hoffmanlabs.com/node/441>

I'm guessing the first thing to do is replace the Dallas chip. Before
ordering one and waiting, just asking, should this be my first step.

What are the particular symptoms of "acting up"? Any console messages?
LED patterns? Beeps? Generic SOD ( Sudden Onset Dead)?
Other options include staging the Viking funeral or a transition to
museum static display, and a migration to a less-ancient box.

I have less ancient boxes, and use them. But I really like my
VAXstation 4000 model 90A. I have a strong desire to keep it running.


Well, the first problem was a stopped queue entry, and (Ok, I admit it,
I'm not a heavy user of VMS any more) I couldn't get the print job to
re-start, abort, or anything.

So I finally got upset, and (too much MS influence) re-started the
system. Yeah, boo, hiss ....

When it restarted, it was reading from the disk (DKA0), I know this
because it had started to boot VMS. Then I got something I've never
seen before. DKA0 is the boot disk. It came up with a message that
DKA0 was in (the dreaded) "mount verify". Never seen this on a boot
disk before, while booting.

So, Ok, another RZ26 maybe has died, not the first. Grab a few more and
go to the AlphaServer 800, restore a couple of disks from the latest
image backup of the VAXstation 4000 boot disk.

Decided to blow out the system, which had collected some dust.
(Computers are great air cleaners.)

Put things back together, and powered on. Then things got bleaker.

Got "reenter bit crl" (or something like that).

Ok, google is your friend. Found some stuff from 2001 when Hans Vlem
had a similar problem. Figured that I needed to take a look. (Always
dangerous).

Took system totally apart. No battery apparent. Hmmm.... Found Dallas
chip, removed from motherboard. Now what ???

Back to google. Found sources for Dallas chip, $5 - $7 cost, not too
bad. Wondering whether I should order a handful. (Got 3 VAXstation
4000 systems)

Also found some dust on bottom of motherboard, will clean some more.

System is what, over 20 years old. Perhaps new Dallas chips would be a
good idea, regardless of other issues. Cost sure isn't an issue.

Oh, by the way, original disk seemed to check out as Ok.

I don't really want to think about it, but I'm ready to bet that
"special betting dollar" that it's the power supply. It's ALWAYS the
power supply. Multiple problems. Yeah, it'll be the power supply. I'm
running low on VAXstation 4000 power supplies.

Creeping into my mind ... "simh" "simh" ....

[David Froble via Info-vax]

Post by David Froble via Info-vax

Post by Stephen Hoffman via Info-vax

Today my VAXstation 4000 model 90A started acting up. Did some
research, read some old posts which mention firmware, battery, and
the Dallas DS1287A chip.
I can not find anything on the motherboard that looks like a battery.
Is the Dallas chip the battery?

The Dallas Chip is a socketed DIP chip, and contains NVRAM for console
settings, Time Of Year clock, and a battery.
Info, links: <http://labs.hoffmanlabs.com/node/441>

I'm guessing the first thing to do is replace the Dallas chip.
Before ordering one and waiting, just asking, should this be my first
step.

What are the particular symptoms of "acting up"? Any console
messages? LED patterns? Beeps? Generic SOD ( Sudden Onset Dead)?
Other options include staging the Viking funeral or a transition to
museum static display, and a migration to a less-ancient box.

I have less ancient boxes, and use them. But I really like my
VAXstation 4000 model 90A. I have a strong desire to keep it running.
Well, the first problem was a stopped queue entry, and (Ok, I admit it,
I'm not a heavy user of VMS any more) I couldn't get the print job to
re-start, abort, or anything.
So I finally got upset, and (too much MS influence) re-started the
system. Yeah, boo, hiss ....
When it restarted, it was reading from the disk (DKA0), I know this
because it had started to boot VMS. Then I got something I've never
seen before. DKA0 is the boot disk. It came up with a message that
DKA0 was in (the dreaded) "mount verify". Never seen this on a boot
disk before, while booting.
So, Ok, another RZ26 maybe has died, not the first. Grab a few more and
go to the AlphaServer 800, restore a couple of disks from the latest
image backup of the VAXstation 4000 boot disk.
Decided to blow out the system, which had collected some dust.
(Computers are great air cleaners.)
Put things back together, and powered on. Then things got bleaker.
Got "reenter bit crl" (or something like that).
Ok, google is your friend. Found some stuff from 2001 when Hans Vlem
had a similar problem. Figured that I needed to take a look. (Always
dangerous).
Took system totally apart. No battery apparent. Hmmm.... Found Dallas
chip, removed from motherboard. Now what ???
Back to google. Found sources for Dallas chip, $5 - $7 cost, not too
bad. Wondering whether I should order a handful. (Got 3 VAXstation
4000 systems)
Also found some dust on bottom of motherboard, will clean some more.
System is what, over 20 years old. Perhaps new Dallas chips would be a
good idea, regardless of other issues. Cost sure isn't an issue.
Oh, by the way, original disk seemed to check out as Ok.
I don't really want to think about it, but I'm ready to bet that
"special betting dollar" that it's the power supply. It's ALWAYS the
power supply. Multiple problems. Yeah, it'll be the power supply. I'm
running low on VAXstation 4000 power supplies.
Creeping into my mind ... "simh" "simh" ....

A follow up on the VAXstation 4000.

I figured I needed to get off my lazy ass and do some work.

POST gives:

?? 140 10 SCSI 0034

The double "?" means it's fatal.

The extensive PDF manual I have says this is a failure of one of the
SCSI tests.

The SCSI is on the motherboard.

So, I guess it's time to say "it's dead Jim". Unless someone knows of
anything that can be done.

Backup system will not start POST. All 8 lights stay on. Might be a
second "It's dead Jim".

Now running on my VAXstation 4000 model 90, and it has no backup, so
this may be the end of the line. Time to move my stuff to an Alpha.

As a final comment, if there is anyone who can diagnose and fix this old
stuff, I'd appreciate hearing about it. I'd still have to consider the
cost.

Dave

[JF Mezei via Info-vax]

Post by David Froble via Info-vax
?? 140 10 SCSI 0034
The double "?" means it's fatal.
The extensive PDF manual I have says this is a failure of one of the
SCSI tests.

I would check SCSI bus termination or possibly a deffective drive.

Post by David Froble via Info-vax
So, I guess it's time to say "it's dead Jim".

If POST starts up, it is generally not completely dead.

Are you able to get to >>> after POST ?If so, what does SHOW SCSI show ?

[Hans Vlems via Info-vax]

Post by David Froble via Info-vax

Post by David Froble via Info-vax

Post by Stephen Hoffman via Info-vax

Today my VAXstation 4000 model 90A started acting up. Did some
research, read some old posts which mention firmware, battery, and
the Dallas DS1287A chip.
I can not find anything on the motherboard that looks like a battery.
Is the Dallas chip the battery?

The Dallas Chip is a socketed DIP chip, and contains NVRAM for console
settings, Time Of Year clock, and a battery.
Info, links: <http://labs.hoffmanlabs.com/node/441>

I'm guessing the first thing to do is replace the Dallas chip.
Before ordering one and waiting, just asking, should this be my first
step.

What are the particular symptoms of "acting up"? Any console
messages? LED patterns? Beeps? Generic SOD ( Sudden Onset Dead)?
Other options include staging the Viking funeral or a transition to
museum static display, and a migration to a less-ancient box.

I have less ancient boxes, and use them. But I really like my
VAXstation 4000 model 90A. I have a strong desire to keep it running.
Well, the first problem was a stopped queue entry, and (Ok, I admit it,
I'm not a heavy user of VMS any more) I couldn't get the print job to
re-start, abort, or anything.
So I finally got upset, and (too much MS influence) re-started the
system. Yeah, boo, hiss ....
When it restarted, it was reading from the disk (DKA0), I know this
because it had started to boot VMS. Then I got something I've never
seen before. DKA0 is the boot disk. It came up with a message that
DKA0 was in (the dreaded) "mount verify". Never seen this on a boot
disk before, while booting.
So, Ok, another RZ26 maybe has died, not the first. Grab a few more and
go to the AlphaServer 800, restore a couple of disks from the latest
image backup of the VAXstation 4000 boot disk.
Decided to blow out the system, which had collected some dust.
(Computers are great air cleaners.)
Put things back together, and powered on. Then things got bleaker.
Got "reenter bit crl" (or something like that).
Ok, google is your friend. Found some stuff from 2001 when Hans Vlem
had a similar problem. Figured that I needed to take a look. (Always
dangerous).
Took system totally apart. No battery apparent. Hmmm.... Found Dallas
chip, removed from motherboard. Now what ???
Back to google. Found sources for Dallas chip, $5 - $7 cost, not too
bad. Wondering whether I should order a handful. (Got 3 VAXstation
4000 systems)
Also found some dust on bottom of motherboard, will clean some more.
System is what, over 20 years old. Perhaps new Dallas chips would be a
good idea, regardless of other issues. Cost sure isn't an issue.
Oh, by the way, original disk seemed to check out as Ok.
I don't really want to think about it, but I'm ready to bet that
"special betting dollar" that it's the power supply. It's ALWAYS the
power supply. Multiple problems. Yeah, it'll be the power supply. I'm
running low on VAXstation 4000 power supplies.
Creeping into my mind ... "simh" "simh" ....

A follow up on the VAXstation 4000.
I figured I needed to get off my lazy ass and do some work.
?? 140 10 SCSI 0034
The double "?" means it's fatal.
The extensive PDF manual I have says this is a failure of one of the
SCSI tests.
The SCSI is on the motherboard.
So, I guess it's time to say "it's dead Jim". Unless someone knows of
anything that can be done.
Backup system will not start POST. All 8 lights stay on. Might be a
second "It's dead Jim".
Now running on my VAXstation 4000 model 90, and it has no backup, so
this may be the end of the line. Time to move my stuff to an Alpha.
As a final comment, if there is anyone who can diagnose and fix this old
stuff, I'd appreciate hearing about it. I'd still have to consider the
cost.
Dave

What happens if you disconnect all peripherals from the SCSI bus?
It may just as well be a bad disk or tape unit that causes the problem.
Or a powersupply that decided it wouldn't drive all the gear inside the box.
Hans

[Colin Butcher via Info-vax]

I've successfully replaced Dallas chips in DS10s with the DS12887+ RTC,
12887, DIP24, eg:
http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?CMP=i-ddd7-00001003&sku=1285409

That might work in the VAXstation 4000-90.

--
On the SCSI front, it might be worth removing all the discs (including CD
drive) and tapes, then making sure the bus is terminated and see if you can
diagnose which device is failing. Worst case it's the controller.

--
On the firmware front, this might help:

The KA49 CPU was used in the VAXstation 4000 model 90, 90A, and 96
General instructions for using the "cougar" files is in Blitz TD# 1620,which
is at: http://prosic.cxo.dec.com/PUBS/BLITZES/TD001620.HTML
I have no idea what happened to the "prosic" stuff unfortunately. Hopefully
some people have copies.

Nemonix used to make a SCSI + 100Mbps ethernet for the machine that had a
firmware update. I think they used to ship both the firmware update (which
supported their board) and the original firmware (so that you could revert
if needed). Might be worth asking them.

[Michael Kraemer via Info-vax]

Ok, hardware dummy here. Today my VAXstation 4000 model 90A started
acting up. Did some research, read some old posts which mention
firmware, battery, and the Dallas DS1287A chip.

An empty Dallas usually causes universal Alzheimer,
i.e. the machine has lost date and time as well as its boot device
and so tries to start via Ethernet.

I can not find anything on the motherboard that looks like a battery.
Is the Dallas chip the battery?

This chip is a combo of RTC and builtin battery.
It shouldn't be too hard to locate on the MoBo,
it is socketed, relatively large and has written "Dallas" and a clock icon on it.
It's right below the SCSI outlet.
The original DS1287A is no longer available,
but it's replacement, the DS12887A, worked well for me
when I dropped one into a dead 4000/60 a few months ago.
Don't forget to note its original orientation.
If the DS12887A still can be ordered, I'd prefer it over
the usual drill-and-solder exercises, the part is only a few bucks.

[David Froble via Info-vax]

Post by Michael Kraemer via Info-vax

Ok, hardware dummy here. Today my VAXstation 4000 model 90A started
acting up. Did some research, read some old posts which mention
firmware, battery, and the Dallas DS1287A chip.

An empty Dallas usually causes universal Alzheimer,
i.e. the machine has lost date and time as well as its boot device
and so tries to start via Ethernet.

I can not find anything on the motherboard that looks like a battery.
Is the Dallas chip the battery?

This chip is a combo of RTC and builtin battery.
It shouldn't be too hard to locate on the MoBo,
it is socketed, relatively large and has written "Dallas" and a clock icon on it.
It's right below the SCSI outlet.
The original DS1287A is no longer available,
but it's replacement, the DS12887A, worked well for me
when I dropped one into a dead 4000/60 a few months ago.
Don't forget to note its original orientation.
If the DS12887A still can be ordered, I'd prefer it over
the usual drill-and-solder exercises, the part is only a few bucks.

I think I already wrote, I've found multiple sources for the original
DS1287A chip. I have to wonder, are these old, and if so, would the
internal battery be affected? $5 to $7 bucks plus shipping.

I'd also wonder which would be better, the original, or the DS12887A?

[glen herrmannsfeldt via Info-vax]

David Froble <***@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:

(snip)

Post by David Froble via Info-vax
I think I already wrote, I've found multiple sources for the original
DS1287A chip. I have to wonder, are these old, and if so, would the
internal battery be affected? $5 to $7 bucks plus shipping.

The way they are supposed to work is that the clock (and, I believe,
oscillator) is turned off until you turn it on by writing to the
appropriate register. That should delay the time until it runs down.

Post by David Froble via Info-vax
I'd also wonder which would be better, the original, or the DS12887A?

It is usual to put the year and week of the year as a date code
on integrated circuit packages.

-- glen